Explain this logically christians....

[Kathryn]

All subjective....



So you are saying that what faith does , in fact, is to change the perspective. So i ask, do you see faith as a requirement for such a change?
Couldn't it be possible for such to happen without the addition of faith?

Well, you asked what had changed BEFORE things got better. I told you. You can either accept it or not - it won't change anything.

As for faith being a requirement - I can only speak for myself. If you don't need faith in order to hang onto peace and emotional stability in the midst of turmoil or tragedy, more power to you. I'm only relaying what works for me.

 

[smokeybear]

Ninerbuff said:

"No, I wanted a logical explanation of how a god that knows an tragic event will happen, and has the power to stop or change it, doesn't do it, then EXPECTS the grieving to turn to him for comfort when really the outcome could have been different.

I'm not searching for an answer to life and death. I feel confident that we live to pass on our genes, and then die and that's it. No gray area for me."


Your belief that awareness ends at death of the physical body contributes to your judgment of the event in question as "tragic."

If, however, the soul sheds the physical body like old, torn clothes to be replaced with new upon rebirth, then physical death is not tragic.

It is a misunderstanding to believe that God "expects" faith. Faith is a personal choice resulting from an awareness of how helpless we humans are when faced with the immensity of infinity -- and how anything or anyone can be taken from us anytime.

You are beating your head against the wall trying to find logic in faith. There is none.

Also, don't try to find logic in animal instinct. Coyotes are not logical. Follow one sometime.

Actually, logic only reigns over a minutely small dominion of reality.

Thank, God.

.
​

 

[Koldo]

Well, you asked what had changed BEFORE things got better. I told you. You can either accept it or not - it won't change anything.

Surely.

As for faith being a requirement - I can only speak for myself. If you don't need faith in order to hang onto peace and emotional stability in the midst of turmoil or tragedy, more power to you. I'm only relaying what works for me.

You pretty much answered the OP by now.

In other words, your argument is : The reason to lean on God for support is that regardless of whether he exists or not, the faith in his existence leads to a change in perspective that makes it easier for some people to cope with their current situations.

Is that correct?

 

[Koldo]

Ninerbuff said:

"No, I wanted a logical explanation of how a god that knows an tragic event will happen, and has the power to stop or change it, doesn't do it, then EXPECTS the grieving to turn to him for comfort when really the outcome could have been different.

I'm not searching for an answer to life and death. I feel confident that we live to pass on our genes, and then die and that's it. No gray area for me."


Your belief that awareness ends at death of the physical body contributes to your judgment of the event in question as "tragic."

If, however, the soul sheds the physical body like old, torn clothes to be replaced with new upon rebirth, then physical death is not tragic.

It is a misunderstanding to believe that God "expects" faith. Faith is a personal choice resulting from an awareness of how helpless we humans are when faced with immensity of infinity -- and how anything or anyone can be taken from us anytime.

You are beating your head against the wall trying to find logic in faith. There is none.

Also, don't try to find logic in animal instinct. Coyotes are not logical. Follow one sometime.

Actually, logic only reigns over a minutely small dominion of reality.

Thank, God.

.
​

I know where you are coming from.
However, you are seeing things from afar. You have to try to view the situation in first-person perspective. Had the same event fallen upon your shoulders you would surely say it was tragic.

 

[Kathryn]

You pretty much answered the OP by now.

In other words, your argument is : The reason to lean on God for support is that regardless of whether he exists or not, the faith in his existence leads to a change in perspective that makes it easier for some people to cope with their current situations.

Is that correct?

No.

My position is this.

The existance of God, or lack thereof, does not depend one iota on whether or not we believe He exists. We can either choose to have faith in His existance and infinite wisdom, or faith in our own wisdom or someone else's, or choose to have no faith in anything or anyone. How faith or the lack thereof affects each individual has too many variables for me to determine. All I can say is how it works for me.

 

[Kathryn]

I know where you are coming from.
However, you are seeing things from afar. You have to try to view the situation in first-person perspective. Had the same event fallen upon your shoulders you would surely say it was tragic.

I've had tragic events happen in my life. To be honest with you, even in the midst of those events, I felt like my faith gave me a bigger picture which helped me tremendously when it came to my emotional state.

 

[Koldo]

No.

My position is this.

The existance of God, or lack thereof, does not depend one iota on whether or not we believe He exists. We can either choose to have faith in His existance and infinite wisdom, or faith in our own wisdom or someone else's, or choose to have no faith in anything or anyone. How faith or the lack thereof affects each individual has too many variables for me to determine. All I can say is how it works for me.

How does this contradict what i have said? :sarcastic

 

[Koldo]

I've had tragic events happen in my life. To be honest with you, even in the midst of those events, I felt like my faith gave me a bigger picture which helped me tremendously when it came to my emotional state.

I was talking about smokeybear's post and his opinion. Do you share his opinion?

 

[ninerbuff]

Your belief that awareness ends at death of the physical body contributes to your judgment of the event in question as "tragic."

If, however, the soul sheds the physical body like old, torn clothes to be replaced with new upon rebirth, then physical death is not tragic.

It is a misunderstanding to believe that God "expects" faith. Faith is a personal choice resulting from an awareness of how helpless we humans are when faced with the immensity of infinity -- and how anything or anyone can be taken from us anytime.

You are beating your head against the wall trying to find logic in faith. There is none.

Also, don't try to find logic in animal instinct. Coyotes are not logical. Follow one sometime.

Actually, logic only reigns over a minutely small dominion of reality.

Thank, God.

.
​

You're right I'm beating my head with someone who I consider is illogical. Thanks for playing.

 

[smokeybear]

If time eventually heals tragedy, then tragedy is finite.

And...

If matter is finite (dies), then faith in matter (doctors, psychologists, government, banks, insurance, etc.) is also finite.

But...

Since God is, by definition, Infinite; then faith in God is potentially infinite.

Therefore faith in matter may or may not overcome tragedy. It's a roll-the-dice, Las Vegas crap shoot.

However,

Finite tragedy facing Infinite faith is no contest. Consequently, tragedy and sufficient faith in God cannot co-exist.

As far as smokeybear's capacity to be crumpled by tragedy?

If he's ever bummed by anything -- anything at all....

He ain't tryin'.

.
​

 

[ninerbuff]

If time eventually heals tragedy, then tragedy is finite.

And...

If matter is finite (dies), then faith in matter (doctors, psychologists, government, banks, insurance, etc.) is also finite.

But...

Since God is, by definition, Infinite; then faith in God is potentially infinite.

Therefore faith in matter may or may not overcome tragedy. It's a roll-the-dice, Las Vegas crap shoot.

However,

Finite tragedy facing Infinite faith is no contest. Consequently, tragedy and sufficient faith in God cannot co-exist.

As far as smokeybear's capacity to be crumpled by tragedy?

If he's ever bummed by anything -- anything at all....

He ain't tryin'.

.
​

Lol, I think you may have carbon monoxide poisoning of the brain from fighting all them fires.:yes:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin - not trying to evade here. I honestly don't understand your question.

I noticed that all your responses to the problem of evil seem to be of the "it might not be as bad as it seems" or the "sometimes unpleasant things are needed to acheive good things" variety.

Are you trying to refute the claim that God could've made things better by saying that the world we have is as good as it could be?

And I know the original question wasn't asked to you - but I hate it when people "answer" a question with another question.

Oh - I wasn't trying to answer your question. What you wrote made me think of something else.

 

[Kathryn]

I was talking about smokeybear's post and his opinion. Do you share his opinion?

I share some of his opinions.

 

[Kathryn]

I noticed that all your responses to the problem of evil seem to be of the "it might not be as bad as it seems" or the "sometimes unpleasant things are needed to acheive good things" variety.

Are you trying to refute the claim that God could've made things better by saying that the world we have is as good as it could be?


.

No. I don't know how good the world could be in the context of a different plan, because I don't know the whole plan.

Evil is horrible. Tragedy is horrible. I am not trying to minimize it in any way. Remember, you are talking to a woman who has had a stillborn baby, who has had her husband hold a loaded gun to her head, who has experienced quite a bit of grief and shock and sorrow in her life.

Christians believe that this world is temporal and that all sorrow and evil and tragedy will be done away with and will seem like a distant memory, if we remember it at all, one day. I think I can speak for most Christians when I say that, as well as many other religious people outside of Christianity for that matter.

I have faith in God's wisdom and justice.

 

[Koldo]

If time eventually heals tragedy, then tragedy is finite.

I don't agree with this premise. I don't think time heals tragedy.

And...

If matter is finite (dies), then faith in matter (doctors, psychologists, government, banks, insurance, etc.) is also finite.

But...

Since God is, by definition, Infinite; then faith in God is potentially infinite.

Therefore faith in matter may or may not overcome tragedy. It's a roll-the-dice, Las Vegas crap shoot.

Keep in mind that faith belongs to whoever is feeling it, not to the thing towards faith is direct upon. Faith towards an infinite or finite being has no difference at this point.
It is also important to note that you describe us as being finite beings, so we can not have infinite faith.

However,

Finite tragedy facing Infinite faith is no contest. Consequently, tragedy and sufficient faith in God cannot co-exist.

Not only they can co-exist, but they DO co-exist. It is general common sense. If you want to go against it, prove it.

As far as smokeybear's capacity to be crumpled by tragedy?

If he's ever bummed by anything -- anything at all....

He ain't tryin'..

 

[Kathryn]

The passage of time often DOES give us time to heal. Time alone doesn't heal anything though.

 

[Koldo]

No. I don't know how good the world could be in the context of a different plan, because I don't know the whole plan.

Evil is horrible. Tragedy is horrible. I am not trying to minimize it in any way. Remember, you are talking to a woman who has had a stillborn baby, who has had her husband hold a loaded gun to her head, who has experienced quite a bit of grief and shock and sorrow in her life.

Christians believe that this world is temporal and that all sorrow and evil and tragedy will be done away with and will seem like a distant memory, if we remember it at all, one day. I think I can speak for most Christians when I say that, as well as many other religious people outside of Christianity for that matter.

I have faith in God's wisdom and justice.

smokeybear believes tragedy is subjective....:cover:

Anyway, How does what you have said in the previous post contradict what i have said about your conclusion? :sarcastic

Onto a different topic now, i believe everyone understands the concept of the Chritian God. The belief in the temporal evil and suffering and all of that, however what some people don't understand is why would an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent allow us to suffer for even 1 second? Why is it needed at all? Not to mention the biggest problem of all, the unequal suffering. Why would an Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent being allow people to suffer in an unequal manner?

The only acceptable answer i could find is out of the chritian's beliefs. It is called reincarnation.

 

[Kathryn]

LOL, well, ok then. That makes so much MORE sense.

 

[Koldo]

The passage of time often DOES give us time to heal. Time alone doesn't heal anything though.

How exactly do you heal a tragedy?
What do you understand by "heals tragedy"?

 

[Koldo]

LOL, well, ok then. That makes so much MORE sense.

Yes, it does. It easily explains unequal suffering.