Explain this logically christians....

[Copernicus]

it was not gods will for the drunk driver to hit the family. however, it was the drunk drivers free will wich lead him to getting drunk and choosing to drive. God does not mess with our free will. he gives us the freedom of choice... in fact gods will is for the man not to be drunk, because the consequences of drunkeness mixed with driving are dangerous... blame the drunk drivers will not god's will. and i am sorry to hear that.

You really missed the point, and you obviously have not read some of the previous posts on this topic. This is not about the "free will" of the drunk driver, but God's free will to prevent the incident and the free will of the victims to choose not to be killed, injured, or traumatized. Most drunk drivers out there do not kill or injure anyone. Most probably never get punished for driving under the influence. So this is not just about God's depraved indifference to the suffering of the victims, but also the unfair way in which people suffer. Why would a fair God allow horrible tragedy to strike some, yet let others go through life with relatively little suffering by comparison? Some people of faith have jumped to the crazy conclusion that those who suffer more than others deserve it, because God, after all, is in control of everything. Others try to imagine an omnipotent God who is so ideologically committed to preserving our free will that he never intervenes--except in those cases where he does. Because the Bible is full of reported interventions in the form of miracles. A God that never intervenes is pretty worthless. So how does any of this make logical sense?

 

[Copernicus]

Don't knock yourself out trying to understand this, folks. What smokeybear is posting here is information not easily grasped by a mind conditioned by materialism/religion. Logic and reason are simply too confining to apprehend the immensity of spiritual issues.

I understand. Lacking your insight into spiritual matters, we should all count ourselves lucky to be in your presence, if only electronically. If what you post seems trite, poorly thought out, or completely lacking in logic or reason, we need to recognize that our minds are conditioned by materialism/religion. Yours is not, so we should just accept your conclusions. Does that sum it up? :areyoucra

 

[search the scriptures]

"This is not about the "free will" of the drunk driver, but God's free will to prevent the incident and the free will of the victims to choose not to be killed, injured, or traumatized."

if god prevented all bad from happening free will would be affected, people will to do wrong sometimes.
the victims had no choice to die or not. but the man that killed them did, and his choice in doing what he did brought consequences, affecting other people.

"Most drunk drivers out there do not kill or injure anyone. Most probably never get punished for driving under the influence."

but alot do. and it wont happen as much as it does if people diddnt choose to get drunk and drive.

"but also the unfair way in which people suffer."

in this case the drunk driver made these people suffer suc

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

it was not gods will for the drunk driver to hit the family. however, it was the drunk drivers free will wich lead him to getting drunk and choosing to drive. God does not mess with our free will. he gives us the freedom of choice... in fact gods will is for the man not to be drunk, because the consequences of drunkeness mixed with driving are dangerous... blame the drunk drivers will not god's will. and i am sorry to hear that.

So God is less than fully sovereign.

And the question of God's will vs. the driver's will isn't a zero-sum game: to the extent that God knew what was going to happen and did nothing, he's culpable.

BTW - God does "mess with our free will": he sets the "rules" that allow for a drunk to kill a family with his car, but not for him to kill a family with the power of thought, for instance.

 

[search the scriptures]

"And the question of God's will vs. the driver's will isn't a zero-sum game: to the extent that God knew what was going to happen and did nothing, he's culpable."

yes, why does he have to do something?

BTW - God does "mess with our free will": he sets the "rules" that allow for a drunk to kill a family with his car, but not for him to kill a family with the power of thought, for instance.

rules= dont get drunk ... why? so u dont hurt u or other people, because it could happen. who decides by their own free will to obey or disobey the rules? if it was god there would be no free will but gods will imposed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

if god prevented all bad from happening free will would be affected, people will to do wrong sometimes.

"Yeah, I heard about Steve being killed. Did you know that Bob the cop was standing right there? He watched as the guy came up with a gun and shot Steve. Bob could've intervened, stopped the guy and saved Steve's life, but he decided that the best thing to do would be to do nothing. Bob preserved that murderer's free will... Bob's a great guy that way."


BTW - exactly what do you mean when you say "free will"?

 

[search the scriptures]

free will:
freedom of choice. acting out what you want. not forced, but desired

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

yes, why does he have to do something?

He doesn't. He only has to intervene if he's morally good and capable of intervening.

rules= dont get drunk ... why? so u dont hurt u or other people, because it could happen. who decides by their own free will to obey or disobey the rules? if it was god there would be no free will but gods will imposed.

I meant the physical laws of this universe. No matter how hard you try, you won't be able to violate the "rule" that says you can't kill a person with the power of your thoughts. If we had different physical laws, different things would be possible. If God really didn't want people to get drunk, he wouldn't have just said "don't get drunk" (BTW - where exactly does he give this "rule"?); he would've changed things so that we don't metabolize alcohol the way we do. He already did this for most other substances we ingest - you don't get drunk eating a hamburger, do you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

free will:
freedom of choice. acting out what you want. not forced, but desired

And you think we have that? I don't know about you, but there are tons of things that I would want but that I can't "act out".

I want to fly using telekinetic powers. God has denied this to me. Has he violated my free will by doing this?

If not, then how would it be "denying free will" to limit our physical abilities in other ways?

 

[search the scriptures]

"If God really didn't want people to get drunk, he wouldn't have just said "don't get drunk" (BTW - where exactly does he give this "rule"?); he would've changed things so that we don't metabolize alcohol the way we do. He already did this for most other substances we ingest - you don't get drunk eating a hamburger, do you?"

who makes the substance that gets you drunk? and if god diddnt want us to chop off somone elses head, why did we get arms and hands?.... you do what u want freely of your own desire with what is here. god does not make u do what you do not want to do. just because we can make fire does not mean god wants us to burn ppl with it. he actually says, hey there is fire but dont do it... it could hurt somone if you light somone on fire. if there is a branch god does not choose wether to hit somone, or plan for it to hit somone. it is the choice of the person who hits. how many ways can we die? you can die taking a dump... should god not have made that part of what we do? you can die leaning back the wrong way... should god not have made ribs? heart? etc... he says wrong choices, apart from his warnings could harm u so dont do it. he says disobedience to his law brings death. if there was no law, who would stop ppl from dictating, killing etc...? he also says we all disobey his law... then we must all die....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

who makes the substance that gets you drunk?

Yeast made it, assuming the alcohol came from fermentation. Who designed the yeast? Who decided that humanity should have access to an organism that excretes alcohol when it eats sugar?

and if god diddnt want us to chop off somone elses head, why did we get arms and hands?.... you do what u want freely of your own desire with what is here. god does not make u do what you do not want to do.

Really? I have to do lots of things that I don't want to do. For instance, I'm kinda tired right now and I think I need to go to bed, but I'd rather stay on here all night if it didn't mean I wouldn't be functional tomorrow. Who decided that I can't go without sleep?

just because we can make fire does not mean god wants us to burn ppl with it. he actually says, hey there is fire but dont do it... it could hurt somone if you light somone on fire. if there is a branch god does not choose wether to hit somone, or plan for it to hit somone. it is the choice of the person who hits.

... kinda. God "decided" that really large branches would be to heavy for a person to lift and hit someone with. He "decided" that I can start a fire with matches, but not by spitting flames.

how many ways can we die? you can die taking a dump... should god not have made that part of what we do? you can die leaning back the wrong way... should god not have made ribs? heart? etc...

Well, a perfect God would be capable of making a perfect creation, wouldn't he?

At the very least, he could've "decided" to not make us use the same tube to eat as to breathe. There's absolutely no reason (as long as we assume that there's a god running the show, of course) why we should've been put in the position where we can literally die from eating without enough care and attention.

he says wrong choices, apart from his warnings could harm u so dont do it.

He does? What warnings are you talking about?

he says disobedience to his law brings death.

So does obedience to God's law. Everyone dies.

if there was no law, who would stop ppl from dictating, killing etc...?

It wouldn't be God; you just told us that God doesn't interfere with people's "free will".

he also says we all disobey his law... then we must all die....

Out of curiosity: do you believe in Heaven? If so, do you think that people have free will there?

 

[search the scriptures]

maybe this will help :

bible beleivers and god: mankind deserves the worst not the best

the heart of mankind: mankind deserves the best and never the worst

bible or god:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked

mankind: follow your heart, be proud of it.

Psa 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. Psa 10:5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight

and I am just as wicked as all of mankind.... all i did was beleive god, and he promises peace and the best to come to beleivers, freely given and not earned. christians are not self righteous, but humbly accepting that fact and veiwing our logic based on that, or our god's word.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

maybe this will help :

bible beleivers and god: mankind deserves the worst not the best

the heart of mankind: mankind deserves the best and never the worst

Nope. That doesn't help at all.

Personally, I think the whole concept of "deserving" is kinda useless.

 

[Beta]

Some people will look for infinite reasons and excuses to blame God for all human ills totally ignoring the fact that it has been established from the start that man was given 6 days (6000 years) in which to do their own thing Ex.20v9.
This period was given to man to show just how we would cope with life seeing it was our choice to do so Gen.3v6.
To say that God has done nothing in all that time is quite untrue. 2000 years ago he made possible for people to be saved from their own ignorance and mistake thus vastly improving their human lot - but the majority do not want to know and continue to act vile and blame God for it. Sadly this will continue until man's allotted time is up showing that man can not live correctly without God. :no:

 

[search the scriptures]

"Yeast made it, assuming the alcohol came from fermentation. Who designed the yeast? Who decided that humanity should have access to an organism that excretes alcohol when it eats sugar?"

was it designed for drunkeness or relaxation? who drinks too much and looses control of ones self?

"Really? I have to do lots of things that I don't want to do. For instance, I'm kinda tired right now and I think I need to go to bed, but I'd rather stay on here all night if it didn't mean I wouldn't be functional tomorrow. Who decided that I can't go without sleep?"

is god forcing you to go to bed apart from your choice? or do you say im goin to sleep? does god lay u down when u dont want to?


"Well, a perfect God would be capable of making a perfect creation, wouldn't he?"

he did, but adam sinned, knowing the penalty and he inherited sin from the tree, then he having sin in his blood, changing his nature had a child after sinning. blame adam for not bein perfectly created... blame yourself for taking upon your own guilt, by your choice of disobedience to the law bringing your own guilt apart from adam, by the choices you made = accountability.


"He does? What warnings are you talking about?"

getting drunk, you can get sick, could harm u or others...


"So does obedience to God's law. Everyone dies."

by one mans obedience (jesus) we are given spiritual life. who besides jesus according to the bible is 100% obedient, by their actions? noone. point not good biblically.


"It wouldn't be God; you just told us that God doesn't interfere with people's "free will".


law and penalty for breaking stop alot of people. not god.

"Out of curiosity: do you believe in Heaven? If so, do you think that people have free will there?"

yes, the devil willingly disobeyed god as an angel, and is condemned for doing so. as well as other angels... but the offer of reconciliation is only to mankind.

 

[Copernicus]

if god prevented all bad from happening free will would be affected, people will to do wrong sometimes.

Why does it trouble you that the will of the drunk driver might have been compromised? You seem more concerned about the freedom to commit evil than to live in peace. So does your God, apparently.

the victims had no choice to die or not. but the man that killed them did, and his choice in doing what he did brought consequences, affecting other people.

Yes, but how is this better than if God had prevented the incident? And why would God not want to? After all, everyone's free will gets compromised on Judgment Day, doesn't it? At least, by your lights it does. Your argument from "free will" makes no sense at all.

"Most drunk drivers out there do not kill or injure anyone. Most probably never get punished for driving under the influence."

but alot do. and it wont happen as much as it does if people diddnt choose to get drunk and drive.

Well, that's why we have cops and laws against driving while intoxicated. By your logic, we ought to let everyone behave as they want. If someone were about to kill me, I would welcome intervention by the police or a deity. My free will would be compromised if someone who could prevent the murder failed to do so.

"but also the unfair way in which people suffer."

in this case the drunk driver made these people suffer suc

Again, you miss the point. God could have dealt with the drunk driver as he pleased. No rational purpose was served by God permitting evil, especially since he apparently does not permit it in paradise.

 

[Beta]

Again, you miss the point. God could have dealt with the drunk driver as he pleased. No rational purpose was served by God permitting evil, especially since he apparently does not permit it in paradise.

But a purpose is being served by permitting evil - it's just that you don't grasp it . Please se #574
God is showing man the results of disobeying His Word, His Commandments. If God were to step in every time we are about to do something wrong would we ever learn not to be the cause of it ? God wants man to think before we do something that could hurt ourself or others. God already knows what hurts man but we are the ones's that must learn that by repenting and shunning further wrongdoing.

 

[Looncall]

But a purpose is being served by permitting evil - it's just that you don't grasp it . Please se #574
God is showing man the results of disobeying His Word, His Commandments. If God were to step in every time we are about to do something wrong would we ever learn not to be the cause of it ? God wants man to think before we do something that could hurt ourself or others. God already knows what hurts man but we are the ones's that must learn that by repenting and shunning further wrongdoing.

Nah, I think it's more like a bunch of clerics out to make you feel guilty all the time so you'll keep their pews and collection plates full.

This scam has been going on for thousands of years. Don't you think it's time to put an end to it?

 

[Kathryn]

He doesn't. He only has to intervene if he's morally good and capable of intervening.


I meant the physical laws of this universe. No matter how hard you try, you won't be able to violate the "rule" that says you can't kill a person with the power of your thoughts. If we had different physical laws, different things would be possible. If God really didn't want people to get drunk, he wouldn't have just said "don't get drunk" (BTW - where exactly does he give this "rule"?); he would've changed things so that we don't metabolize alcohol the way we do. He already did this for most other substances we ingest - you don't get drunk eating a hamburger, do you?

Play along with me here for a minute.

Do you really want God intervening in all choices we make? Do you really want all risk taken away? Wouldn't that just turn us all into happy robots?

Our freedom to choose involves risk. No risk, no gain.

 

[Koldo]

Some people will look for infinite reasons and excuses to blame God for all human ills totally ignoring the fact that it has been established from the start that man was given 6 days (6000 years) in which to do their own thing Ex.20v9.

What?!

Quote from NIV:

Exodus 20:8-11

[8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. ]

So now we are gonna work for 6000 years, and rest 1000 years?
:sarcastic

This period was given to man to show just how we would cope with life seeing it was our choice to do so Gen.3v6.

If you make a big mistake in your life, how about me turning you and your next generations my slaves for the next 1000 thousand years? Would you think it is fair? Seriously, wake up. It was not our choice. Neither you nor me ate the fruit, so we can not pay for what was not done by us AND before we were even born.

To say that God has done nothing in all that time is quite untrue. 2000 years ago he made possible for people to be saved from their own ignorance and mistake thus vastly improving their human lot - but the majority do not want to know and continue to act vile and blame God for it. Sadly this will continue until man's allotted time is up showing that man can not live correctly without God. :no:

You missed the point entirely......