-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Explain this logically christians....
- Thread starter ninerbuff
- Start date
Koldo
Outstanding Member
It was designed for every use possible. When God creates somethings he already know how it will be used.
God created our bodies , either indirectly or directly, and our body is forcing us to sleep. In other words, God is forcing us to sleep.
My name is not Adam. I can not pay for what i have not done.
Just curious. What happened to people living between Adam and Moses?
ninerbuff
godless wonder
How about this? The victim's car is SLOWED by a stoplight that god manipulated to stay red longer. Now the VICTIM uses free will to run the stop light or ignore it. At least in this scenario the victim made a choice.
The victim here had no "free will" to choose to avoid the accident. It's the the same with all INNOCENT victims of death by another.
ninerbuff
godless wonder
So according to this god gives you a "choice" of life with him or "death" with eternal torment.
Hmmmm, don't know too many people who want to be tormented or be dead (of course people suffering from illness might choose death, but that's another thread) or would enjoy it.
My point is that this is a "forced" decision. It's constrained by lack of option. An ultimatum. It's either live or die.
A better definition of freedom of choice and free will would be like: what country would you like to live in? What ingredients would like in your salad? Should I buy a jacket or sweater?
Get it?
ninerbuff
godless wonder
Scripture isn't proof that "god" said or commanded this.
I know you don't like it when people answer your questions with questions, but I'm doing it anyway
p) with the same question I asked search the scriptures:Is there free will in Heaven?
I ask this because I think the answer sheds some light on this issue:
- if it's "yes", then a perfect life without suffering is possible even with free will.
- if it's "no", then in the long run, God doesn't really care about our free will at all.
But to answer your question more directly, I don't think it has to be a question of "all". For instance, I mentioned the problem that we use the same tube to eat as to breathe, which makes it a lot easier for us to accidentally kill ourselves. Would we become "happy robots" simply by having separate tubes connecting our mouth and our nose to our stomach and lungs respectively? I don't think we would. There's a ton of suffering in this world that can't be attributed to some sort of fear of avoiding the "happy robot" circumstance.
And as I alluded to before, doesn't God keep us from some harmful choices anyhow? God set up the physical laws of the universe so that I can kill a person by stabbing him with a knife, but not by poking him with my finger. He arranged things so that if I drink too much alcohol, my senses will be impaired, but if I drink the same amount of water or milk, my senses will be fine. Since God has prevented us from doing most conceivable harmful things, I think it's doesn't fit the facts at hand to say that God's got a problem with preventing us from doing harmful things.
I don't know - the yeast are the ones who made it, and they're not telling me.
God has created the bargain that says "if you stay up all night, you will be completely useless tomorrow."
And yes, if I try to not sleep at all, eventually "God" intervenes and forces me to sleep.
Then Adam was not perfect. A creation that sins is not a perfect creation.
Why would I blame Adam? We're all "pots", each appointed by the "potter" to our set task. When something goes wrong with a pot, do you blame the pot or the potter who made it?
Ah... so you think we can infer God's will from the natural world?
I don't think this is a road you want to start down.
Neither does logical consistency, apparently.
I'm not sure you answered what I was trying to get at:
Say you die and find yourself in Heaven. Will you still have free will?
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
OK, going to #574:
I do not agree. Believers tend not to look for excuses to blame God. Rather, they bend over backwards to rationalize God's behavior or lack thereof. Nonbelievers, of course, have nobody to blame, although they do find it hard to buy the rationalizations of believers. The idea that God would set any time limit on humanity makes it sound as if an omniscient being is conducting an experiment to discover something it doesn't already know. So what you say here sounds preposterous.
The ancients who created and reworked the Genesis story over time had a concept of God that was less than perfect. Their God could simultaneously know everything and need to find stuff out that it did not know. That may have sounded a little crazy back then, but they were working with a more impoverished understanding of the universe. Their version of God had more human flaws than the modern version tends to have. Nowadays, the Christian God is thought to be a little less clueless as to the choices his creations would make. We have the pagan Plato to thank for the idea of a perfect being.
Alternatively--Sadly, people will continue to believe in such an implausible being until the human race comes to an end. It is in our nature to cling to such beliefs, even though we ought to know better. Perhaps it is more empowering to us to believe that all of reality is ultimately there to serve our needs. The belief that the universe is indifferent to our survival can be very frightening.
Popping out of #574...
Indeed, yes. We would have to be awful stupid to disobey him if he stepped in every time. The fact that he doesn't step in like that does lead people to think that they can get away with a lot, doesn't it? So it would make great sense for God to intervene, if he wanted us to learn that bad behavior would have consequences. If he existed, why wouldn't he do that?
Right, but God could teach us the lesson far more quickly if he didn't play coy with us. The direct approach would be infinitely better. Can you think of a good reason why he doesn't step in more often?
friend , I don't go to church
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I'm playing, but you must play, too. So then we obviously lose that freedom for all of eternity once we achieve our immortal existence after physical death. Our physical lives are brief in comparison to eternity. In the end, we are "happy robots" for a lot longer than the less happy non-robots that we are now. Will we look back on our mortal lives with longing?
Al right - lets go back to the 7 day week. Ex.20v9 : 6 days shall you labour and do all your own work.v10 but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord your God in it you shall not do any work.
Is that easier to understand ? If you don't keep it holy you break the 4th command of God and sin - therefore you are still eating the same fruit Adam and Eve did.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Al right - lets go back to the 7 day week. Ex.20v9 : 6 days shall you labour and do all your own work.v10 but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord your God in it you shall not do any work.
Is that easier to understand ? If you don't keep it holy you break the 4th command of God and sin - therefore you are still eating the same fruit Adam and Eve did.
I have never worked in the 7th day of the week. What are you talking about? :areyoucra
ninerbuff
godless wonder
Well then is church service, which is usually held on Sundays a violation since this would be considered a "work day" for preachers, priests etc?Al right - lets go back to the 7 day week. Ex.20v9 : 6 days shall you labour and do all your own work.v10 but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord your God in it you shall not do any work.
Is that easier to understand ? If you don't keep it holy you break the 4th command of God and sin - therefore you are still eating the same fruit Adam and Eve did.
Sunday's the first day. The seventh day is Saturday.
smokeybear
Member
To some of you folks' glee, this will be smokeybear's last post on this thread.
The following is a little off-topic to start but will merge with the Ninerbuff's original query.
Logic works only in a closed system. Since reality is not a closed system, logic has limited use.
For example:
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke spent his academic career studying the Great Depression -- how it happened and how it could have been prevented. He gave a speech in 2002 outlining the procedure for stopping a deflationary collapse like the Great Depression. The speech was applauded by economists all over the world.
One could presume that creating inflation to stop a deflationary spiral to be logically sound. The Federal Reserve is currently flooding the financial system with newly printed money to try to keep interest rates low thereby stimulating borrowing and spending. They are following Ben Bernanke's well-planned procedure to stop deflation and create jobs. Not only is the plan failing, but the money-printing is causing commodities and energy prices to soar. thereby extracting money from the rest of the economy.
Businesses are feeling the pinch because, while their overhead costs are rising, they find it difficult to raise prices into falling demand. The more the Fed prints, the worse the situation becomes.
What seemed a sound logical solution is actually counter-productive. This is because nature is not a closed system. Quite the contrary, natural forces are extremely unpredictable.
To paraphrase famous economist John Kenneth Galbraith, "Any good farmer knows more about economics than any economist." Since modern man left nature to live in climate-controlled cities, he overlooked his inadequacy in dealing with the wild impulses of the cosmos.
Another example is science's attempt to find the essential particle by dividing atoms into smaller and smaller particles with accelerators. Billions are spent on these machines that have no hope of ever finding the essential stuff. Their efforts come out of an ignorance of infinity. There is no end to small just as there is no end to big.
Therefore, it is not logical to use logic to deal with unseen natural forces. Logic and its inherent reason is, however, mostly adequate to deal with known, controllable things -- like fuel injection.
The original post on this thread stated that the person in question turned to faith in God after suffering a tragedy. This is a microcosm of what will occur as our economic system collapses.
Suffering is part of life. The good times experienced in the inflationary cycle have shrouded our memory of how life is naturally. Suffering reminds man that he is not all-powerful and opens his heart to seeking the real nature of reality. That is why we are here.
The failure of man to know and control natural forces coupled with increased suffering will send many to spirituality for answers. The person in the original post was doing what comes naturally, not logically.
It is easy to say what you would do "if,", quite another when your whole world collapses in front of you. This is part of the ignorance of left-brain logic. It expects and tries to inject continuity into a reality that has none.
Just ask Ben Bernanke.
The following is a little off-topic to start but will merge with the Ninerbuff's original query.
Logic works only in a closed system. Since reality is not a closed system, logic has limited use.
For example:
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke spent his academic career studying the Great Depression -- how it happened and how it could have been prevented. He gave a speech in 2002 outlining the procedure for stopping a deflationary collapse like the Great Depression. The speech was applauded by economists all over the world.
One could presume that creating inflation to stop a deflationary spiral to be logically sound. The Federal Reserve is currently flooding the financial system with newly printed money to try to keep interest rates low thereby stimulating borrowing and spending. They are following Ben Bernanke's well-planned procedure to stop deflation and create jobs. Not only is the plan failing, but the money-printing is causing commodities and energy prices to soar. thereby extracting money from the rest of the economy.
Businesses are feeling the pinch because, while their overhead costs are rising, they find it difficult to raise prices into falling demand. The more the Fed prints, the worse the situation becomes.
What seemed a sound logical solution is actually counter-productive. This is because nature is not a closed system. Quite the contrary, natural forces are extremely unpredictable.
To paraphrase famous economist John Kenneth Galbraith, "Any good farmer knows more about economics than any economist." Since modern man left nature to live in climate-controlled cities, he overlooked his inadequacy in dealing with the wild impulses of the cosmos.
Another example is science's attempt to find the essential particle by dividing atoms into smaller and smaller particles with accelerators. Billions are spent on these machines that have no hope of ever finding the essential stuff. Their efforts come out of an ignorance of infinity. There is no end to small just as there is no end to big.
Therefore, it is not logical to use logic to deal with unseen natural forces. Logic and its inherent reason is, however, mostly adequate to deal with known, controllable things -- like fuel injection.
The original post on this thread stated that the person in question turned to faith in God after suffering a tragedy. This is a microcosm of what will occur as our economic system collapses.
Suffering is part of life. The good times experienced in the inflationary cycle have shrouded our memory of how life is naturally. Suffering reminds man that he is not all-powerful and opens his heart to seeking the real nature of reality. That is why we are here.
The failure of man to know and control natural forces coupled with increased suffering will send many to spirituality for answers. The person in the original post was doing what comes naturally, not logically.
It is easy to say what you would do "if,", quite another when your whole world collapses in front of you. This is part of the ignorance of left-brain logic. It expects and tries to inject continuity into a reality that has none.
Just ask Ben Bernanke.
.
Last edited:
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
From my limited human perspective, I cannot fully grasp the concept of living in a state of perfection.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Perhaps he can supply a more relevant response to the thread topic.