Exploring Atheism

[yearningknight]

I totally disagree atheists believe as they believe to be true. There is no book to tell them what they can and can't do. They make their own rules plus atheistism is so broad too that it runs into many different cagetories as well. Like science, evolution, non-theist, skeptics, and many others. So I don't think that you can truly ask an atheist what they believe and why they believe and then expect other atheists to believe the same as that atheist. I hope this helps you out Maro.

 

[kai]

I dont see any signs of Intelligence in the universe ,what i think a lot of theists ignore or dont comprehend is the vast amounts of time involved here, such as the earth being 4.5Billion years old so it took nearly 4.5billion years for all life to evolve into its present form that we see today.

to look around and say this is a miracle it can only be Gods work, is a like a quick fix to understanding the sciences. a couple of thousand years ago it would have been undertandable to answer the unknown with the stock answer of a deity to fill the gaps in knowledge.

 

[little_monkey]

God ,for me , is a higher wise being "outside" the universe...

Then that would mean whenever God interacts with the universe, there would a violation of the conservation of mass/energy. Your religious view is incompatible with science.

 

[Halcyon]

I dont see any signs of Intelligence in the universe...

Hehehe, there's a bit here and there.

 

[crystalonyx]

I totally disagree atheists believe as they believe to be true. There is no book to tell them what they can and can't do. They make their own rules plus atheistism is so broad too that it runs into many different cagetories as well. Like science, evolution, non-theist, skeptics, and many others. So I don't think that you can truly ask an atheist what they believe and why they believe and then expect other atheists to believe the same as that atheist. I hope this helps you out Maro.

Nobody makes their own rules.

 

[maro]

I am having some questions for you ,if you don't mind....

Yesterday ,I was reading these Qura'nic verses..[23:115] "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account )?"

[116] Therefore exalted be Allah, the King, the Reality; there is no god but He, the Lord of the Throne of Honour!

When i began to wonder...How does Atheism satisfy the deep human need for purpose and justice ?
By Purpose , I don't mean getting graduated..or getting married ..or earning some money...I mean a Higher purpose that adds meaning to life as a whole
And by Justice..I don't mean that of the international court of justice :areyoucra , I mean Real and complete justice...

another thing , when i notice some of the living organisms , i can see something which I can't call anthing but "divine Care "...for example ,when i see a tiny helpless mosquito is taught that forming the eggs in a raft shape is the best way from preventing them from sinking . also , supplying them with little air sacs !! How did she know about the Archimedes' Law ? Is she a harvard graduate ? how did that tiny little nobody learned such an amazing fact that is vital to her ?
She is certainly a fascinating Creature... but I still don't feel she is my ancestor in the evolution chain

As for darwinism ,i guess you believe that living beings were formed from lifeless matter , Right ?...I would like to ask is that a scientificaly proved assumption ? ...or when it comes to that point evolutionists feel it's necessary only to believe so ?....Penguin ,what do you think ?

 

[Gunfingers]

I am having some questions for you ,if you don't mind....

Yesterday ,I was reading these Qura'nic verses..[23:115] "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account )?"

[116] Therefore exalted be Allah, the King, the Reality; there is no god but He, the Lord of the Throne of Honour!

When i began to wonder...How does Atheism satisfy the deep human need for purpose and justice ?
By Purpose , I don't mean getting graduated..or getting married ..or earning some money...I mean a Higher purpose that adds meaning to life as a whole
And by Justice..I don't mean that of the international court of justice :areyoucra , I mean Real and complete justice...

It doesn't. Not in any universal sense. As has been mentioned before there is no monolithic "atheism". Everyone believes what they believe.
For my part i'm perfectly content with the idea that when i die i will be faced with...nothing. Oblivion. It's perfectly fine to me. Purpose is as i make of it. My goal is to live a good life and die wealthy and to at some point have sex with two girls at the same time. Also i want to own some puppies.
Justice...i'm not sure there's any such thing. Justice in the legal sense is just a way to control and correct behavior. Justice in the universal sense, as i think you're using it, involves punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous. I don't consider that necessary. Rehabilitation is more important than punishment and rewards are simply not guarunteed.

another thing , when i notice some of the living organisms , i can see something which I can't call anthing but "divine Care "...for example ,when i see a tiny helpless mosquito is taught that forming the eggs in a raft shape is the best way from preventing them from sinking . also , supplying them with little air sacs !! How did she know about the Archimedes' Law ? Is she a harvard graduate ? how did that tiny little nobody learned such an amazing fact that is vital to her ?
She is certainly a fascinating Creature... but I still don't feel she is my ancestor in the evolution chain

Simply put, it doesn't understand it. It's pretty much the same as how people breath heavily after running even before we understood how oxygen is necessary in the chemical reactions that break down food to release energy that powers our muscles on the cellular level. It's hardwired to behave that way. That behavior is genetic in nature and because it is beneficial those genes will be passed on. If the mosquito did something less beneficial it would be less likely to survive long enough to reproduce and thus would be less likely to pass on its genes.

As for darwinism ,i guess you believe that living beings were formed from lifeless matter , Right ?...I would like to ask is that a scientificaly proved assumption ? ...or when it comes to that point evolutionists feel it's necessary only to believe so ?....Penguin ,what do you think ?

Look up the Miller-Urey experiment. I'd link to it, but i don't have enough posts to link. It is an experiment that attempted to model early earth. After a week or so they were able to create amino acids, the basic building blocks of life. Spontaneous Origin should not be confused with Spontaneous Generation. That's something else, and is not a valid scientific theory anymore.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When i began to wonder...How does Atheism satisfy the deep human need for purpose and justice ?
By Purpose , I don't mean getting graduated..or getting married ..or earning some money...I mean a Higher purpose that adds meaning to life as a whole
And by Justice..I don't mean that of the international court of justice :areyoucra , I mean Real and complete justice...

Atheism doesn't do any of that... no more than lack of belief in every religion but Islam does that for you.

Personally, my views on these sorts of issues are mainly based in humanism, not atheism.

another thing , when i notice some of the living organisms , i can see something which I can't call anthing but "divine Care "...for example ,when i see a tiny helpless mosquito is taught that forming the eggs in a raft shape is the best way from preventing them from sinking . also , supplying them with little air sacs !! How did she know about the Archimedes' Law ? Is she a harvard graduate ? how did that tiny little nobody learned such an amazing fact that is vital to her ?
She is certainly a fascinating Creature... but I still don't feel she is my ancestor in the evolution chain

The "Divine Care" that taught a mosquito to form her eggs into a raft is the same "Divine Care" that taught her to transmit malaria. If you're going to infer that the natural world is the intentional product of God, you have to take it all, I think: if God can be praised for the good in the world, that means He can be blamed for the bad as well.

As for darwinism ,i guess you believe that living beings were formed from lifeless matter , Right ?

That's not "Darwinism". Evolution describes how life changes over time; it doesn't describe how life first emerged, much like how Ohm's Law describes how electrons move, but is silent on how electrons came into existence in the first place.

...I would like to ask is that a scientificaly proved assumption ? ...or when it comes to that point evolutionists feel it's necessary only to believe so ?....Penguin ,what do you think ?

It's not proven, but I think it's been demonstrated that it's plausible for life to emerge spontaneously from non-life under the right conditions.

 

[maro]

It's hardwired to behave that way.

How is it hardwired to behave benefecially if it's not even aware of the facts ? Isn't that the divine care i was talking about ?

Personally, my views on these sorts of issues are mainly based in humanism, not atheism.

how does humanism do it for you ?

The "Divine Care" that taught a mosquito to form her eggs into a raft is the same "Divine Care" that taught her to transmit malaria. If you're going to infer that the natural world is the intentional product of God, you have to take it all, I think: if God can be praised for the good in the world, that means He can be blamed for the bad as well.

As muslims ,we believe everything...The bad and the good , happens for a reason...it might not be completely revealed in this life as our earthly life is only one chapter of the story that will be followed by the chapter of eternal justice

That's not "Darwinism". Evolution describes how life changes over time; it doesn't describe how life first emerged

If evolution doesn't have anything to say about the emergence of life ,then how can it replace god for atheists ?
Also ,if according to evolution ,the highly complex structures such as cells, and eventually eyes and ears, came into existence by random chance..How can that be a measurable scientific conclusion ? ,i guess you have just objected to the anthropometric principle being scientific as it's not measurable

Also , if according to evolution life is automatically proceeding towards the Strongerst and the more skillful , as Survival will always be for the strongest...How can it explains the proceeding towards the more beautiful ?

What necessitates the trend towards such beauty , if beauty is a 'value' ,that has nothing to do with the ability to survive ? Also , the more beautiful might not always be the the strongest..

 

[McBell]

If evolution doesn't have anything to say about the emergence of life ,then how can it replace god for atheists ?

You are making the assumption there is some gaping hole that needs filled in where God stood.

Also ,if according to evolution ,the highly complex structures such as cells, and eventually eyes and ears, came into existence by random chance..How can that be a measurable scientific conclusion ? ,i guess you have just objected to the anthropometric principle being scientific as it's not measurable

Here you show a fundamental misunderstanding and/or just not knowing about what evolution actually states and what others claim evolution states.

Also , if according to evolution life is automatically proceeding towards the Strongerst and the more skillful , as Survival will always be for the strongest...How can it explains the proceeding towards the more beautiful ?

What necessitates the trend towards such beauty , if beauty is a 'value' ,that has nothing to do with the ability to survive ? Also , the more beautiful might not always be the the strongest..

IF evolution was only about the strongest and most skillful (it is not) then perhaps you would have a point.
But like I already said:

Here you show a fundamental misunderstanding and/or just not knowing about what evolution actually states and what others claim evolution states.​

 

[camanintx]

Also , if according to evolution life is automatically proceeding towards the Strongerst and the more skillful , as Survival will always be for the strongest...How can it explains the proceeding towards the more beautiful ?

Evolution is about survival of the fittest, not the strongest. Sometime beauty can be a good indication of fitness.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Also , if according to evolution life is automatically proceeding towards the Strongerst and the more skillful , ...

Evolution is a sieve, not a ladder. Life is not "automatically proceeding towards" anything.

 

[little_monkey]

I am having some questions for you ,if you don't mind....

Yesterday ,I was reading these Qura'nic verses..[23:115] "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account )?"

[116] Therefore exalted be Allah, the King, the Reality; there is no god but He, the Lord of the Throne of Honour!

When i began to wonder...How does Atheism satisfy the deep human need for purpose and justice ?
By Purpose , I don't mean getting graduated..or getting married ..or earning some money...I mean a Higher purpose that adds meaning to life as a whole
And by Justice..I don't mean that of the international court of justice :areyoucra , I mean Real and complete justice...

another thing , when i notice some of the living organisms , i can see something which I can't call anthing but "divine Care "...for example ,when i see a tiny helpless mosquito is taught that forming the eggs in a raft shape is the best way from preventing them from sinking . also , supplying them with little air sacs !! How did she know about the Archimedes' Law ? Is she a harvard graduate ? how did that tiny little nobody learned such an amazing fact that is vital to her ?
She is certainly a fascinating Creature... but I still don't feel she is my ancestor in the evolution chain

As for darwinism ,i guess you believe that living beings were formed from lifeless matter , Right ?...I would like to ask is that a scientificaly proved assumption ? ...or when it comes to that point evolutionists feel it's necessary only to believe so ?....Penguin ,what do you think ?

As I pointed out in an earlier -- which you did not respond -- your beliefs are incompatible with science. I find it ironic that you would apply (more like mis-apply) scientific principles to mosquitoes. Living creatures survive because of many factors -- one of which is natural selection. If you had understood that principle, you would not be asking such a silly question as "How did she know about the Archimedes' Law ?" Mosquitoes don't know, but natural selection would explain it quite rationally.

As to purpose and justice, these like morality and creating a better world are human endeavors which are still in progress. Nothing is written in cement, and most of the things we live by were discovered by trial and error.

 

[Gunfingers]

How is it hardwired to behave benefecially if it's not even aware of the facts ? Isn't that the divine care i was talking about ?

Do you know what instinct is? To oversimplify, it's an unlearned behavior. It's hard to find an example we can easily empathize with, as humans have virtually no instincts, so i'll use a mediocre example: every person knows to sleep when they're tired. Why sleeping is important doesn't matter, we don't need to understand the facts, we're just hardwired to sleep.
The fact that you can act without understanding why is probably not indicative of a divine being acting through you.

 

[maro]

Evolution is about survival of the fittest, not the strongest. Sometime beauty can be a good indication of fitness

Great..the question now is why ?..why beauty is considered a sign of fittness ?..how such a supereior Value became a trend in life , out of the chaos and coincidence ?.....I can digest that natural selection randomly chose the strongest "physically " to survive...but from where the trend towards beauty arise in nature ?

Mosquitoes don't know, but natural selection would explain it quite rationally.

How can natural selection explain the unaware benefectial acting of living organisms ? what brought the knowledge to the genes ? What is the source of knowledge ?...and please be patient with the dummy muslim ,i am only learning about the magical natural selection that can rationally explain everything

As to purpose and justice, these like morality and creating a better world are human endeavors which are still in progress. Nothing is written in cement, and most of the things we live by were discovered by trial and error.

Correct me if i am mistaken , i see that the sense of morality created by darwinism is : 1) You are not responsible to anyone because you owe your life to chance 2)In the struggle to survive , You may have to crush others....

Can you be a sincere darwinist without holding such basis in mind ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Great..the question now is why ?..why beauty is considered a sign of fittness ?

It need not be. Evolution is a sieve, not a ladder. (Yes, I'll keep repeating it until you get it.)

 

[Magic Man]

It need not be. Evolution is a sieve, not a ladder. (Yes, I'll keep repeating it until you get it.)

Yes, exactly. Very good metaphor.

 

[little_monkey]

Great..the question now is why ?..why beauty is considered a sign of fittness ?..how such a supereior Value became a trend in life , out of the chaos and coincidence ?.....I can digest that natural selection randomly chose the strongest "physically " to survive...but from where the trend towards beauty arise in nature ?



How can natural selection explain the unaware benefectial acting of living organisms ? what brought the knowledge to the genes ? What is the source of knowledge ?...and please be patient with the dummy muslim ,i am only learning about the magical natural selection that can rationally explain everything



Correct me if i am mistaken , i see that the sense of morality created by darwinism is : 1) You are not responsible to anyone because you owe your life to chance 2)In the struggle to survive , You may have to crush others....

Can you be a sincere darwinist without holding such basis in mind ?

First, education is in order for you. Tho' that is quite difficult through the internet, which can never replace five years of study in biology in a reputable university. However, you can always start here YouTube - 3 -- The Origin of Life made easy . (On the same website, there are a number of follow-up videos which you can watch.)

Second, you are confusing darwinism with atheism. Darwinism was popular at the turn of the 20th century, and has long been discarded.

Third, the struggle for survival does not mean to crush others. Mammalians, for instance, develop a strong bond with their offsprings, which made them better at adapting to survive than, say, reptilians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

how does humanism do it for you ?

To start with, let me give you the International Humanist and Ethical Union "Minimum Statement of Humanism" as one example of a summary statement of what humanism is (though there are several, and they do differ):

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

For me, it starts with the acknowledgement that I should extend to other people the rights and respect that I enjoy (or would want to enjoy) myself. My feelings on justice flow out of that.

As muslims ,we believe everything...The bad and the good , happens for a reason...it might not be completely revealed in this life as our earthly life is only one chapter of the story that will be followed by the chapter of eternal justice

Ah... so God did design the mosquito to transmit malaria, and even though the disease causes horrible suffering and death, it is in fact good... we just don't know why it's good. Right?

Wouldn't that sort of thinking lead to the conclusion that every single thing that happens does so with God's consent, is part of God's perfect plan, and is therefore moral?

If evolution doesn't have anything to say about the emergence of life ,then how can it replace god for atheists ?

It doesn't.

The only bearing that evolution has on theology is that it implies that divine intervention was not necessarily required for life on Earth to go from its initial forms to us and what we see around us now.

Also ,if according to evolution ,the highly complex structures such as cells, and eventually eyes and ears, came into existence by random chance..How can that be a measurable scientific conclusion ? ,i guess you have just objected to the anthropometric principle being scientific as it's not measurable

No... they did not come into existence by random chance. Mutations may be random, but natural selection is not.

Also , if according to evolution life is automatically proceeding towards the Strongerst and the more skillful , as Survival will always be for the strongest...How can it explains the proceeding towards the more beautiful ?

What necessitates the trend towards such beauty , if beauty is a 'value' ,that has nothing to do with the ability to survive ? Also , the more beautiful might not always be the the strongest..

There is no evolutionary trend toward "more beautiful".

There is a trend toward traits that are positive in an organism's immediate environment. For example:

- ability to attract a mate
- ability to ward off competitors
- ability to ward off predators
- ability to catch prey

All of these can affect the physical appearance of a species, but human-judged aesthetics are irrelevant to evolution... except for humans, of course.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How can natural selection explain the unaware benefectial acting of living organisms ? what brought the knowledge to the genes ? What is the source of knowledge ?...and please be patient with the dummy muslim ,i am only learning about the magical natural selection that can rationally explain everything

Mosquitos start off with a range of nest-building strategies, and children tend to use the nest-building strategy of their parents.

Some strategies are more successful than others. The mosquitos using poor strategies died more often, or had fewer eggs hatch. The mosquitos using good strategies survived more often, and had more eggs hatch. With each generation, the proportion of mosquitos using the good strategies increases, until finally, the number of mosquitos using the poor nest-building strategy dwindles until they disappear altogether.

Correct me if i am mistaken , i see that the sense of morality created by darwinism is : 1) You are not responsible to anyone because you owe your life to chance 2)In the struggle to survive , You may have to crush others....

You are mistaken. The theory of evolution does not impose any sort of morality on anyone.

Evolutionary theory tells us what has happened in the past, and can help us determine what might happen in the future. It doesn't tell you what to do now; it certainly doesn't tell you which course of actions are right or wrong.