Eye of the Beholder series: "Will the real worship please stand up?"

[LuisDantas]

thanks for respond my replay

What I have to say
Humans are trying to reach the bliss point which is God (the Creator) which is the source of happiness and comfort because he is their source of existence

But many do not succeed due to the lack of experience in reading
Or getting false news from ignorant people that is inherited as a habit
Or affected by influential events

I believe that my success in life will depend on the gratitude of this maker which is God

And this information we passed on from the main source, Adam
If you notice, even though there are primitive people in remote, isolated and unknown places, all the world agrees that shaking hands with the right hand

How did everyone on this planet agree to shake hands with the right hand?

From this thread it appears to me that the belief in the oneness of God was present with the first source, Adam

But what happened next is to falsify data and concepts

I think Tawhid is only the path of truth
Tawhid - Wikipedia

That is a very Muslim take on religion.

Trouble is, it just isn't anywhere near applicable to people in general, despite its self-assurance that it must be.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you brother for participating
I wish you a happy day

Thanks and regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

This thread attempts to compile a representative sample of the various takes on the meaning of the word "worship", with an emphasis on practical questions such as whether it is possible for people to be worshipping something without realizing it; whether it is possible to determine what is a proper object of worship, and by which criteria; and whether the word has any form of objective meaning at all.

I will start by pointing out that, in my opinion, "worship" is awfully hard to define in any objective way. Most of the time it is probably fair to allow people to declare themselves worshippers without making the judgement from the outside.

What that worship entails, though, is almost entirely arbitrary. It often involves some form of reverence or contemplation, but that is just a general trend.

What do you think?

This is one of our definitions of worship. Probably the highest form.

A]ll effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity.( Abdul-Baha)

 

[j1i]

hat is a very Muslim take on religion.

Sorry, my friend, I did not mean to spread Islam
Just believe in God

The most important thing I have is understanding the true faith

any other questions i can sharing (^_^)

I apologize for you if my dialogue was not understood or changed the method of dialogue that I wanted

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, my friend, I did not mean to spread Islam
Just believe in God

The most important thing I have is understanding the true faith

any other questions i can sharing (^_^)

I apologize for you if my dialogue was not understood or changed the method of dialogue that I wanted

Your beliefs are yours to have.

It just turns out that they are a bit self-limiting by my perspective.

 

[paarsurrey]

Your beliefs are yours to have.

It just turns out that they are a bit self-limiting by my perspective.

"self-limiting"

How could one say that Islam is self-limiting, please? It is going to be the worlds largest religion in very near-future, they predict. Isn't it, please?

Regards
____________
"In biology, a self-limiting organism or colony of organisms limits its own growth by its actions. For example, a single organism may have a maximum size determined by genetics, or a colony of organisms may release waste which is ultimately toxic to the colony once it exceeds a certain population." Wikipedia

 

[LuisDantas]

"self-limiting"

How could one say that Islam is self-limiting, please? It is going to be the worlds largest religion in very near-future, they predict. Isn't it, please?

Regards
____________
"In biology, a self-limiting organism or colony of organisms limits its own growth by its actions. For example, a single organism may have a maximum size determined by genetics, or a colony of organisms may release waste which is ultimately toxic to the colony once it exceeds a certain population." Wikipedia

You know that I do not recognize the marks of a true religion in Islaam, @paarsurrey .

It is indeed a very self-limiting doctrine; it is literally all in the book. The Qur'an literally forbids Muslims from acknowledging most of the important traits of religion, choosing instead to promote an ideology of theocentrism and tribal ethics. It goes so far as to fail to recognize that idolatry, paganism and atheism all exist and are different things. And, of relevance to this thread, it has very weird understandings of the nature, meaning and purpose of worship that ultimately serve no constructive purpose and cause quite a lot of entirely unnecessary strife and sorrow.

It has attained demographic success, certainly. But that says literally nothing about its religious worth or lack of same.

 

[firedragon]

"self-limiting"

How could one say that Islam is self-limiting, please? It is going to be the worlds largest religion in very near-future, they predict. Isn't it, please?

Regards
____________
"In biology, a self-limiting organism or colony of organisms limits its own growth by its actions. For example, a single organism may have a maximum size determined by genetics, or a colony of organisms may release waste which is ultimately toxic to the colony once it exceeds a certain population." Wikipedia

Cmon bro. You think being the largest religion or not matters at all? It doent mean much. A lot of Muslims keep saying naively that Islam is the largest religion but how many of the Muslims are in one single religion? How many sects and divisions are there in the religion? This is nonsensical reasoning.

Christianity is the largest religion now, HInduism is the third. What does that mean? HInduism must be the greatest religion then not to decline so much in numbers. Have you seen the predictions? Islam will grow, Christianity will decline, but Hinduism will stay.

None of this is evidence to a good religion. Its an illogical argument. Its post hoc.

 

[LuisDantas]

Cmon bro. You think being the largest religion or not matters at all?

It does matter.

As it turns out, being a religion at all matters considerably more.

It doent mean much. A lot of Muslims keep saying naively that Islam is the largest religion but how many of the Muslims are in one single religion? How many sects and divisions are there in the religion? This is nonsensical reasoning.

For whatever it is worth (and indeed, it isn't much) word has it that while the current guardians of Makkah accept the Shia as part of Islaam for the purposes of the Hajj (and accept their money while at it), in other circunstances they refuse to as much as call Shia by the name "Islam".

Christianity is the largest religion now, HInduism is the third. What does that mean?

Demographic expansion and political influence. Which reminds me that Islaam grows a lot more out of breeding than out of conversions, incidentally.

HInduism must be the greatest religion then not to decline so much in numbers. Have you seen the predictions? Islam will grow, Christianity will decline, but Hinduism will stay.

None of this is evidence to a good religion. Its an illogical argument. Its post hoc.

Indeed, it does not address the validity of the doctrines as religions.

Of course, "religion" is hardly a clearly defined concept to begin with, but I will stand for definitions that I see as valid and constructive.

 

[firedragon]

It does matter.

As it turns out, being a religion at all matters considerably more.



For whatever it is worth (and indeed, it isn't much) word has it that while the current guardians of Makkah accept the Shia as part of Islaam for the purposes of the Hajj (and accept their money while at it), in other circunstances they refuse to as much as call Shia by the name "Islam".



Demographic expansion and political influence. Which reminds me that Islaam grows a lot more out of breeding than out of conversions, incidentally.



Indeed, it does not address the validity of the doctrines as religions.

Of course, "religion" is hardly a clearly defined concept to begin with, but I will stand for definitions that I see as valid and constructive.

It does matter.

As it turns out, being a religion at all matters considerably more.



For whatever it is worth (and indeed, it isn't much) word has it that while the current guardians of Makkah accept the Shia as part of Islaam for the purposes of the Hajj (and accept their money while at it), in other circunstances they refuse to as much as call Shia by the name "Islam".



Demographic expansion and political influence. Which reminds me that Islaam grows a lot more out of breeding than out of conversions, incidentally.



Indeed, it does not address the validity of the doctrines as religions.

Of course, "religion" is hardly a clearly defined concept to begin with, but I will stand for definitions that I see as valid and constructive.

So how do you define islam of the Quran? The way you did above?

 

[paarsurrey]

Eye of the Beholder series: "Will the real worship please stand up?"

"worship"

What is understanding of the natural word "worship" in English?
One could reflect from its etymology:

"worship (n.)
Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c. 1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful "honorable" (c. 1300).
worship (v.)
c. 1200, from worship (n.). Related: Worshipped; worshipping."
worship | Origin and meaning of worship by Online Etymology Dictionary
Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

So how do you define islam of the Quran? The way you did above?

Islaam is an ideological doctrine based on the supremacy of monotheism.

It includes a lot of monotheist dogma and a fair share of tribe-oriented ethics, but nearly nothing of religious significance.

 

[LuisDantas]

"worship"

What is understanding of the natural word "worship" in English?
One could reflect from its etymology:

worship (n.)
Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c. 1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful "honorable" (c. 1300).

worship (v.)

c. 1200, from worship (n.). Related: Worshipped; worshipping.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship

It is my understanding that in practice the word has very vague meaning, and is sometimes used interchangeably with "belief in the existence of a deity or other supernatural entity". But worship does not necessarily involve theistic beliefs. It is really a very vague term.

In practice, it is for the worshipper to know that he or she is worshipping; it is nearly impossible for anyone in the outside to know for certain.

The closest Portuguese translation, "adoração", is actually little used and, as it turns out, also means "idolatry".

Depending on context, in Portuguese you might prefer to use the direct translations for "cult" or "veneration" or even "reverence (towards something or someone)".

 

[firedragon]

You know that I do not recognize the marks of a true religion in Islaam, @paarsurrey .

It is indeed a very self-limiting doctrine; it is literally all in the book. The Qur'an literally forbids Muslims from acknowledging most of the important traits of religion, choosing instead to promote an ideology of theocentrism and tribal ethics. It goes so far as to fail to recognize that idolatry, paganism and atheism all exist and are different things. And, of relevance to this thread, it has very weird understandings of the nature, meaning and purpose of worship that ultimately serve no constructive purpose and cause quite a lot of entirely unnecessary strife and sorrow.

It has attained demographic success, certainly. But that says literally nothing about its religious worth or lack of same.

So this is how you understand islam?

 

[firedragon]

Islaam is an ideological doctrine based on the supremacy of monotheism.

It includes a lot of monotheist dogma and a fair share of tribe-oriented ethics, but nearly nothing of religious significance.

Hmm. What do you mean supremacy of monotheism?

 

[LuisDantas]

So this is how you understand islam?

Yes, it is.

 

[firedragon]

Islaam is an ideological doctrine based on the supremacy of monotheism.

It includes a lot of monotheist dogma and a fair share of tribe-oriented ethics, but nearly nothing of religious significance.

What do you mean tribe oriented ethics? Please give some significant number of example because this is the second most prominent thing you have said.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, it is.

Can you given evidence to each of the claims one by one? Quran has 6326 verses so each of your pillars of islam should have a significant number of evidences to make it all about this.

So how do you give your thesis?

 

[LuisDantas]

Hmm. What do you mean supremacy of monotheism?

Islaam does not only claim to be monotheist, or claims monotheism to be true. It claims monotheism to be inate to human nature, and necessary for religious practice.

It actually goes out of its way to claim to be the only true belief, and establishes specific parameters for treatment of those pesky non-Muslims that insist on existing.

It is very much a "we know better than anyone else" doctrine. Come to think of it, the parallels with the idea of White Man's Burden are eerie.

 

[LuisDantas]

What do you mean tribe oriented ethics? Please give some significant number of example because this is the second most prominent thing you have said.

A very large percentage of the Qur'an deals specifically with the spelling out of how Muslims are supposed to treat each other and, perhaps even more significantly, how they are supposed to deal with non-Muslims, down to specific forbiddances to intermarriage and differing tax requirements.

That is defining a tribe that should be favored over those from the outside.