I am taking for granted that we both have a working knowledge of the Qur'an. Are you unsatisfied on that front, then?
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Eye of the Beholder series: "Will the real worship please stand up?"
- Thread starter LuisDantas
- Start date
firedragon
Veteran Member
What is a non Muslim in the Quran? What's the Arabic phrase you refer to ir a reference of a verse that prevails throughout the qurN
Generally speaking, it is a Kaffir. As in the title of Surah 109.
But of course there is also the concept of Dhimmi.
The good folks at SAB have made a compilation that ought to help here.
Intolerance in the Quran
Some more specific commentary can be found here.
What is a Dhimmi? A Kafir? - Islamic Evil Simplified - Coming to Grips with the Islamic Threat
Traditionally, this is the part where I am told that I have not given the Qur'an the proper chance by refusing to read it with the correct intention, and that I am causing harm by spreading the words of haters.
It is a very predictable reaction. I have learned not to lend it significance, and encourage others to do the same.
It is simply not very easy to criticize Islaam or the Qur'an without being considered a hater.
firedragon
Veteran Member
So how did a kafir mean a non Muslim? And how are they supposed to be treated for what reason?
j1i
Smiling is charity without giving money
This is normal in many people who love polytheism with God
God said
40:11 They will say, "Our Lord, you made us die twice, and twice you gave us life. Now we acknowledge our sins. Is there any way out?"
40:12 That is because when Allah alone was called upon, you disbelieved; but when others were associated with Him, you believed. Judgment rests with Allah the Sublime, the Majestic.
and said
39:45 When Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with resentment. But when those other than Him are mentioned, they become filled with joy.
this is result of other believes (Allah said)
29:25 And he said, "You have chosen idols instead of Allah, out of affection for one another in the worldly life. But then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will disown one another, and curse one another. Your destiny is Hell, and you will have no saviors."
Smartly
All religions do not threaten punishment, Leaving them will not harm me, except Islam
so what i will lose if i have faith, just free faith
if its real i will get salvation
if not i will not lose anything
I am not sure of what exactly you mean by this question. There is, of course, considerable effort within the Islamic community to attempt to demonstrate that they are not one and the same thing. And indeed they aren't, once we learn of the Dhimmi.
You could probably claim that it is for scholars to decide who exactly should be called a Kafir, and how and when exactly the word acquired its pejorative conotations.
Myself, I think that the Qur'an is plently clear enough... which is exactly why there is so much effort to claim that it is not.
With some combination of mistrust, hope that they will see the light and become Muslims, and condescendence, apparently.
Yes, I know about Surah 2:256 and about Surah 109.
Neither goes any further than accepting facts beyond the control of either the Qur'an or Muslims as a whole, and both are at odds with the Qur'an as a whole, which goes out of its way to make clear that it is just not right for anyone who truly learned about Islaam not to sincerely want to join it.
The existence of those two parts of the text is often mentioned, of course. It has to be mentioned, as long as Islaam wants to be perceived as respectful of other stances of faith and therefore worth of respect itself. Without them we would have to resort to the whole of the text, which paints a very different picture.
Pretty good illustration of the Islaamic understanding of how anything that isn't monotheism melds into something that is sometimes called polytheism (even when it is not), sometimes idolatry, and sometimes just plain unbelief, while perceived as _very wrong_ all across the board.This is normal in many people who love polytheism with God
God said
40:11 They will say, "Our Lord, you made us die twice, and twice you gave us life. Now we acknowledge our sins. Is there any way out?"
40:12 That is because when Allah alone was called upon, you disbelieved; but when others were associated with Him, you believed. Judgment rests with Allah the Sublime, the Majestic.
and said
39:45 When Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with resentment. But when those other than Him are mentioned, they become filled with joy.
this is result of other believes (Allah said)
29:25 And he said, "You have chosen idols instead of Allah, out of affection for one another in the worldly life. But then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will disown one another, and curse one another. Your destiny is Hell, and you will have no saviors."
Smartly
All religions do not threaten punishment, Leaving them will not harm me, except Islam
so what i will lose if i have faith, just free faith
if its real i will get salvation
if not i will not lose anything
It may well be demonstrable that the Qur'an does in fact objectively fail to acknowledge any difference between the two things.
You have also illustrated how the Qur'an proposes a version of Pascal's Wager. That is something definitely worth spreading awareness of.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Kafir doesnt mean non-muslim. So you are mistaken.
What about verse 2:256 and chapter 109?
Be specific.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Well, I have never thought about one in these terms for reasons.
One is a friend.
Regards
j1i
Smiling is charity without giving money
Thank you, brother, for the kind participation
This is kindness from you, my friend
In Islam
Religion is one and it exists with Adam
This religion is renewed by the prophets
Musa Issa Ayoub, Zakaria and others, the Prophet Hud
The renewal is that the commandments are confirmed and all human additions are removed
Reducing obligations and burdens on people in the previous debt
They are called loosening of laws
But not changing the pillars of faith
The pillars of faith are unchanging
It is faith in God and one
You accuse Islam of being a wrong religion
I will tell you what the problem is that Islam forbids everything except God
Imagine making a drug with a chemical formula
You have to add iron trioxide
You will say that this chemical mixture is unclear, or complex
Because it does not accept a any combination
By Qur'anic standards, it does indeed. Not grammatically, of course; "liar' is "liar". But doctrinarily there seems to be very little alternative to being either a Muslim, a Dhimmi, or a Kafir. I suppose one could be simply stupid...
In context, that is not atypical. The Qur'an makes many very specific claims about religion and belief that, in all likelihood, were very questionable even back in the day. Whoever wrote the book went out of its way to misrepresent belief, religion, and the relationship (such as it is) between the two.
A direct result is that people who are raised Muslim only very rarely have a functional understanding of even the basics of religious concepts, to the point of usually being utterly confused when they learn any.
Come to think of it, I wish I had the opportunity to study Muslim communities in India. Being raised under the creed of Allah must make it exceedingly difficult to grasp even the basics of Hinduism and other Dharmas. I am willing to bet that shortly after exposure to Hinduism (or Jainism, Sikhism or Buddhism) many Muslims have a hard time believing that those doctrines exist for real. The Qur'an all but says upfront that they could not possibly exist.
They are the odd ducks of the Qur'an, saying things that are directly contradicted by the book as a whole.
More significantly, they are just lone statements with no discernible consequences, no support from anything else in the Qur'an.
2:256 attempts to present "compulsion in religion" as something that is either inacceptable or non-existing outright. And there is really no follow-up whatsoever, not even enough to clarify which of the two would be meant, let alone how or why Islaam would pursue that goal. Seeking clarification in other verses of the Qur'an will not help any, either.
Surah 109 is informative not so much for what it says, but for what it fails to say, consider or clarify.
It is very little more than a statement that people from other religions are "unbelievers" who have objects of worship entirely distinct from those/that of Muslims.
That is interesting, because it amounts to a statement that religions are generally defined by some form of belief and/or by their objects of worship, which are explicitly said to be distinct among religions.
All three are actually fairly exotic claims, that betray a lack of awareness and understanding of religions in general. Or perhaps you could argue that it just shows that Islaam strongly disapproves of syncretism (which is true), but I don't think that is what is meant there.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
It is for this that I say that a natural word translated in another language is never alternative of the original. It is accurate to some extant or near to it but never does convey the exact meaning, for obvious reasons. Since we discuss in English, that is why I gave the etymology of the natural word "worship" from English. It does have some good points in it. Right, please?
Regards
Perhaps. It may have flown over my head.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Not quite right. It all depends on what is being said.
A Kafir is someone who knows a truth and hides it.
The first occurrences of the term Kafir occurs in the second chapter of the Quran.
As for those who Kafaroo , whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. – Quran 2:6
Or like a storm cloud from the sky, in it is darkness and thunder and lightning. They place their fingers in their ears from the thunder-claps for fear of death; and God is aware of the Kafirs (Bialkafireena). – Quran 2:19
An exploration of the chapter in concern in context of the surrounding verse will expound the true intention of this allusion. Below you will find a summary of this chapter’s philosophy.
The Quran is revealed to the righteous, who believe in the unseen, who believe in this and the previous revelations.
As for those who see the truth and hide it maliciously commonly referred to as rejecter’s they will not believe in the truth if you inform them or not
Their hearts and ears are sealed, and they are blind. They will proclaim to believe in God and there’s a last day but only lie.
They will claim to be good but the will spread corruption. When they meet those who acknowledge the truth they lie saying they do too
There are no references to religions, races or any denomination. A Kafir could be a person who calls himself a Muslim as you can see above that when a Kafir meets one who has acknowledged the truth they lie to you saying they also do accept the truth. Right at the beginning of the Quran God has explained what a Kafir is, therefore it is high time that people woke up and realised that they may have been mistaken all their lives.
firedragon
Veteran Member
2:256 says la ikraaha fiddheeni. So no compulsion in religion/system/dheen.
chapter 109 does not contradict in any manner. It is only simply saying "lakum dheenukum waliyadhdheeni" which means "your way/system/dheen is yours, and mine is mine".
Where does it say "force them this way or that way to contradict 2:256?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Above you said a few things.
1. A very large percentage of the Qur'an deals specifically with the spelling out of how Muslims are supposed to treat each other
2. and, perhaps even more significantly, how they are supposed to deal with non-Muslims
3. down to specific forbiddances to intermarriage and differing tax requirements
So point by point can you give simple Quranic references as evidence to each of these?
So which is it by your interpretation?
Is a Kafir some who lies, or someone who disbelieves, or both?
Those are two entirely different things... but not in Quranic usage. Much as idolatry, paganism, atheism and "evil beliefs" are not really distinguished either.
It happens so consistently across the book that there is no gracious explanation available.
What is your take on why the concepts are meshed like that in the Qur'an?
"Lovely".
A supremely ambitious scripture, committing blasphemy against itself.
Early on its second chapter, no less.
There is a valuable lesson in this Surah, but it is not one that is likely to please Muslims.
It is not a good engine for creating atheists, but it is certainly a very productive one. It almost looks like it aims to be one.
Again, that is as ingenious as it is misguided.
Righteousness (moral competence) and belief are generally fairly unrelated things.
But not in the Qur'an, and certainly not in this Surah.
In the context of this Surah righteousness and belief in divine prophecy and scripture are presented, almost by accident. as hopelessly opposed to each other, even as the text goes out of its way to attempt to present them as one and the same thing.
Quite despite its own discernible wishes, this Surah is a goldmine for the spread of atheism.
Another excellent example of how hopelessly confused the Qur'an is about its own core concepts.
Surah 2:6-7 have, at least, the virtue of audacity. They say a plainly absurd thing with such recklessness that they almost get away with it.
And all that they have to sacrifice for that purpose is the moral validity of the God they proclaim to be true.
Such an efficient tiny engine of self-blasphemy.
I have to wonder how many Muslims realize that this verse (2:7) makes no sense. Parts of it seem to accurately describe certain groups - fools or stubborn people, then hypocrites, then "true" Kafirs (grammatically, liars).
The whole is entirely at odds with itself. But it is presented so matter-of-factly that the Emperor Clothes phenomenon settles in and creates a superficial appearance of meaning.
Interestingly, some translations seem to be emphasize that these bizarro people, who may or may not actually exist and may or may not conceivably exist at some point (the attributes are just so at odds with each other that one can't really say for certain) are so because God wants it to be so, while others imply that they are in some sense rebels against God.
Perhaps there is no real difference, once one has accepted the necessary premises to attempt to make logical sense of these verses.
I am actually not sure of what verse this is supposed to be. Perhaps 2:8 or even 2:9, but it seems to fit 2:14 better.
Again, the concepts are just too mishappen for the verse to make any clear sense. And that may well be the point. When one tries too hard to make sense of such a text, it all becomes a contradictory blur, from which we can only conclude that the Qur'an is really wary and disapproving of anything that is not blind and unquestioning belief in the existence of God.
The alternatives are presented in a very fantastic way, to the point that we just can't be sure that they were meant to describe people that might conceivably exist, but it is clear that they are disapproved of by the Qur'an.
Goes a long way towards explaining the nature and goals of Islaam. It really does.
Uh. Yes?
It doesn't. That is why they are odd ducks in the Qur'an.
They are just there, doing their best to try and make sense against a background that does not acknowledge their existence nor cooperates with their nominal message in any way.
One ends up wondering if there is an Errata available, and what it will say about those seven verses.
I sure can, but there are people out there who have already done the legwork. Do you want some references?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Reference is the Quran. I have already given the references.
Or are you looking for some other people who have written on this? Is that what you are looking for when you say "references" and others who did legwork?