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Facism Anyone? History Comparison

hexler

Member
One of the most important aspects of fascism is basically identical to communism: the equating of the people with the state. Let us not forget that Nazi was an acronym that referred to the party of the "workers" (not unlike the term proletariat; recall that Marx was German and like Nietzsche intricately tied into an intellectual movement that originated largely in post-Revolutionary French thought and that defined German identity in ways that set the stage for the Nazi party).

Fascist systems have their most immediate roots in French revolutionary movements, French pre- and post-revolutionary intellectual circles, and ideas about a "people's" nation that defined itself largely in contrast to elitist systems such as monarchy, aristocracy, oligarchy, or any system in which the people were not equated with the nation (not really the government, as "government" requires a governed people not just in practice but in name). In practice, like communism, fascist systems have continually spoken of the ways in which the nation is hoi polloi, but have created power structures to ensure that what "the people" are, desire, believe, etc., was exactly what the party was, desired, believed, etc., however large the distinction.



What's the difference? It's an old book I read because I "borrowed" (stole) it from one of my parents' bookshelves in high school, but it has continued to prove invaluable as a source to understanding to the defining processes of totalitarian parities/authoritarian governments: Unger, A. L. (1974). The Totalitarian Party: Party and People in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia (International Studies). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

What distinguishes "Communist" from "Fascist" tyranny is arbitrary. In the case of Germany vs. Russia, it was the degree to which the Nazis had in place media outlets for propaganda, a geographically smaller region to control, and other surface differences. Ideologically, fascism and communism have centrally concerned making hoi polloi be (nominally) the nation and creating (however fictitiously) a defining narrative of the people (the nation) that hearkens back to the ways in which Vergil's Aeneid did the same for Rome. Indeed, the term "fascism" directly linked Mussolini with the Roman Empire. Whether the "German Worker's Party" or the "People's Republic of China", it all traces back to Fraternité and a reversal of classical (particularly Platonic) notions of the horrific idea of power in the hands of hoi polloi vs. not only an actual elite (but nominally democratic, egalitarian, etc.), but a very fundamentally espoused elitism.

Sorry, but fascistic ideas have nothing, nothing to do with communism. The systems were both violent, that is true. Fascism is even from the core thought a ruthless inhuman system. Communism derives from the thoughts of Karl Marx, and he had no intention putting people in a sadistic system.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Do you think enough people will?

I doubt it. We've become too lazy, complacent, and satisfied with the status quo, no matter how inane it may be.

Revoltingest said:
Hmm....I look at Europistan, & see problems which rival ours.
I wouldn't look to them for superior political understanding.
Generally (some exceptions), they're as dumb as we are.

Every country has their problems. Politics does more to create problems than to solve them. But I'm referring more to an understanding of political philosophy. They know more what conservatism, liberalism, fascism, and socialism are, at least more than we do.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Every country has their problems. Politics does more to create problems than to solve them. But I'm referring more to an understanding of political philosophy. They know more what conservatism, liberalism, fascism, and socialism are, at least more than we do.
Why so?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, but fascistic ideas have nothing, nothing to do with communism.

The term totalitario, which Liberal opponents of Benito Mussolini coined in 1923–24 and the dictator merrily plagiarized, only became popular as a sweeping “ism,” a putative generic phenomenon embracing Moscow, Rome, and Berlin, in the 1940s. Not so “fascism” (lower case), which originated in the Communist International in the months after Benito Mussolini’s victory in 1922" (emphasis added)

Knox, M. (2007). To the Threshold of Power, 1922/33: Origins and Dynamics of the Fascist and National Socialist Dictatorships (Vol. 1). Cambridge University Press.

Fascism is even from the core thought a ruthless inhuman system.

There is no "core thought" to fascism as apart from the origins of the term (specific either to ancient Rome or at least Italy if we restrict ourselves to the modern era), "fascist" has been a label applied to some party, government, etc., by outsiders. Recall that the translation of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (Nazi) is "National Socialist German Worker's Party.

Communism derives from the thoughts of Karl Marx
"Retracing the influence of the thought of Marxists such as Otto Bauer and Max Adler on the development of that variant of Marxism we identify as Fascism requires a return to their works—and those collateral works that appeared at essentially the same time, in the same political and historical environment. There is little serious doubt that the work of both Marxist and non-Marxist Austrian theoreticians found its way into the arguments of the vociani, the syndicalists, and ultimately those of Mussolini himself. The work of such thinkers is intrinsic to an understanding of Fascism as a variant of Marxism." (emphasis added)

Gregor, A. J. (2008). Marxism, fascism, and totalitarianism: chapters in the intellectual history of radicalism. Stanford University Press.

and he had no intention putting people in a sadistic system.

Irrelevant. Marxist thought failed to hold for a number of reasons, from the unconscious Christian-based teleology Marx had (as a product of Western culture and despite his deeply rooted anti-religious ideology) that informed his "progressive" model of social systems to the fact that it required an economic system divided as neatly between factory workers and owners that failed to continue.

Neo-Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc., are all wonderful terms that have been an integral component of basically every totalitarian government of the 20th century. One can certainly make the argument that the Nazis were as socialist as the "People's Republic of China" was a Republic, but despite a certain amount of truth to this the historical progression of intellectual movements that spawned what we have called fascist systems had their roots in French intellectualism around the time of the Revolution and that, to the extent "fascist" is distinct from totalitarian rule it is because of affinities to earlier intellectual movements shared by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Sorel, Plekhanov, Mussolini, etc.

That Russia was "communist" and Germany "fascist" is simply to say that there were similarities to the various ways in which the same ideas were corrupted. In particular, the overlap concerns a central idea in Marxism (but does predate Marx) regarding the existing vs. the desired relations between the elite and "the people" (hoi polloi, or volk, or whatever term one wishes to use to refer to those who were not of any aristocracy, royalty, or similar "official" socioeconomic elite status). Marx's proletariat was Hitler's Arbeiter, just in common parlance.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For starters, we have too many conservatives in this country who think Obama is a socialist, when he's still right of center, and can't really even be considered liberal.

I have to apologize because I am quoting your post without actually responding to it, merely using it for my own selfish purposes ("oh the humanity!" and so forth). However, "though this be madness, yet there is method in it". First, given the potential of my previous post to offend just about everybody, your post is useful in that it highlights distinctions between the application or use of some political term, and whether it is accurate. When I say that fascist regimes were much akin to (and shared ideological & intellectual origins with) the roots of communism and socialism, I do not mean to equate either Stalin's Russia with communism or Hitler's Germany with socialism. Obama has been called may things (usually Barack, Mr. President, but also "socialist", "savior", "Satanist", etc.), but we must distinguish between what labels are applied AND those that are adopted, and what the labels actually mean.

Which brings me to my next reason for hijacking your post. Concepts are inherently "fuzzy". So much so that an entire system of logical now ubiquitous within computer science, AI, machine learning, etc., was created because of this vagueness. Not only is it hard to nail down exactly what "socialism" is relative to "Marxism", "communism", etc., but the political spectrum we treat as 1-dimensional and ordered (left to right) is a rather extreme simplification of actual political positions. A conservative in Massachusetts might be seen as a liberal elsewhere, while a left-winger from West Virginia might appear to be far to the right in the Netherlands.

The history of liberalism is mostly one of a view that has more in common with today's libertarianism than today's liberals. The shared etymology of both attest to this, but more importantly so does history. Conservatism, on the other hand, is defined by change as it (like the more extreme "reactionary") in general garners meaning only in relation to change. As things inevitably do change, what the "good ol' days" were, and what the status quo that must be defended lest [insert diabolical person, party, ideology, etc. here] ruin everything, necessarily also change.

That said, most political labels are those that people use to identify themselves or their views at least as much as any such labels are bestowed upon them. This is not so of fascism. That this is not so has posed significant problems for historians and political theorists alike, as there is no "fascist" ideology, manifesto, common creed, etc. It is identified as being right-wing, but extreme right-wing would either consist of monarchy (per Hobbes) or something approaching libertarianism (per Lord Acton and sundry) depending upon how one classifies "right-wing". With few exceptions, fascist regimes have placed too much emphasis on "people as nation" (or "party as people as nation") to be "right-wing". The problem, however, in identifying fascism can be seen merely by comparing the two most prototypical exemplars: Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. Mussolini despised Hitler, had not only identified himself as Marxist but had (in his earlier days) published on the subject in ways that allow us to classify him as being as Marxist as it gets, was an intellectual rather than a starving (and bad) artist-turned fascist dictator, and his nationalism was not race based but cultural. Mussolini had more in common with Lenin than Hitler, while Hitler's fascist Germany was far more akin to Stalin's communist Russia. There exists a tendency to think of fascism as the right-wing extremist parallel to totalitarian communism, but in reality these are both usually corruptions of left-wing ideals, beliefs, and ideologies. What differs are the ways in which these are corrupted as well as how other elements (such as eugenics and racial purity) define specific examples.

Of course, fascism is not left-wing. It is not an ideology or even really a set of ideologies and should probably be equated simply with totalitarianism or some other term that describes not a political system, belief, or position but a government that systematically oppresses, suppresses, controls, and rules as absolutely as possible its citizenry.

As such, it makes a particularly poor concept for historical or contemporary comparisons.
 
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dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Legion, no need to apologize. I do want to say one thing about something you said in your post, and it kind of goes along with what you were saying. You said:

extreme right-wing would either consist of...something approaching libertarianism

What's interesting to me, is how many people who consider themselves liberal identify as libertarians. This goes along with what you were saying, about political labels being more in the grey area.

This can even be the case per individual. For instance, I consider myself far left-wing, however, I do have one or two beliefs/ideas that would fit more with conservatism than liberalism, and I have one or two beliefs/ideas that might be considered more centrist. Does this mean I'm not a liberal, or that I fit more with libertarianism? I guess it would depend on who you ask and what definition they use, even though I consider myself quite liberal.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Of course, fascism is not left-wing. It is not an ideology or even really a set of ideologies and should probably be equated simply with totalitarianism or some other term that describes not a political system, belief, or position but a government that systematically oppresses, suppresses, controls, and rules as absolutely as possible its citizenry.

I'd have to agree; rather than a true ideology, fascism is more like a character or attitude that an entity (whether it is the government or segment of the population) adopts that then dictates policy and the nature of political action. And truth be told, evidence of it can be found in political bodies throughout the ages.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I found this article to be straight forward and knowledgeable. Anyone see any similarities?

I think there are similarities, but I also think that some things brought out as similarities are nothing more than hyperbole. The US does have some fascist tendencies, and they seem (at least on the surface) to have been increasing over the years, particularly in the decades since Sen. McCarthy . A lot of bad things have been done in the name of anticommunism.

I also think it's important to remember that American fascism is neither new nor restricted to a single party. As has been alluded to several times already, there is little real difference in those running this county regardless of what letter they put after their name.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
For starters, we have too many conservatives in this country who think Obama is a socialist, when he's still right of center, and can't really even be considered liberal.
I don't see this as a lack of understanding of political, but rather histrionics, demonization, & word definition problems.

I recall an attempt at discussion in another thread wherein broached the subject of systems not being pure capitalism or socialism, & instead having elements of each. What derailed it was the belief of many that "elements of socialism" meant "socialism".
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I don't see this as a lack of understanding of political, but rather histrionics, demonization, & word definition problems.

I recall an attempt at discussion in another thread wherein broached the subject of systems not being pure capitalism or socialism, & instead having elements of each. What derailed it was the belief of many that "elements of socialism" meant "socialism".

Demonization, that's probably most of it. But I wonder just how many people who throw the terms 'socialism' and 'fascism' around actually know what they mean, what they entail.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Just an historical footnote, but Goebbels learned a lot from studying Edward Bernays, the American founder of the Public Relations Industry in this country. Bernays cut his teeth serving Woodrow Wilson in his effort to convince the country to support our entry into World War I.

That I didn't know, so thanks for posting this.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I tell you, each government that has gained such control has gained that because the people depended on them too much. One situation that requires huge government involvement is all it takes.

But looking at this from a historical perspective, this really is not true as democratic socialism developed because of the ills of capitalism.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
But looking at this from a historical perspective, this really is not true as democratic socialism developed because of the ills of capitalism.

The ills of capitalism? That's silly. It's completely silly to consider Cronyism to be capitalism, it's this misview that has caused people to push aside a working economical idea for years upon years.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The ills of capitalism? That's silly. It's completely silly to consider Cronyism to be capitalism, it's this misview that has caused people to push aside a working economical idea for years upon years.

Sorry but history says otherwise, especially when you look at the latter 1800's and early 1900's. Unbridled capitalism was abandoned by virtually every country because it simply has too many problems associated with it.

By its nature, it's an uncontrolled economy that is susceptible to wide fluctuations. During that time period mentioned, recessions and depressions commonly took place roughly on an average of 10-15 years, plus there was little to help those who lost out as charity couldn't handle the load. Panic tended to make a shallow recession even worse because of the lack of an adequate safety net.

Literally every democratic and industrialized country moved more into a "mixed economy", thus providing capitalistic incentives matched with some regulation and a safety net. My comment on capitalism dealt with capitalism back then versus what we see now, and no country exclusively relies on Adam Smith's rubric today.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry but history says otherwise, especially when you look at the latter 1800's and early 1900's. Unbridled capitalism was abandoned by virtually every country because it simply has too many problems associated with it.

Specify some countries, please. Then, specify what philosophy of capitalism you're speaking about, as it's always been generalized in the same way Socialism is generalized as Communism.

By its nature, it's an uncontrolled economy that is susceptible to wide fluctuations. During that time period mentioned, recessions and depressions commonly took place roughly on an average of 10-15 years, plus there was little to help those who lost out as charity couldn't handle the load. Panic tended to make a shallow recession even worse because of the lack of an adequate safety net.

Again, I'm wanting to see these specific countries you're talking about during that time period, and then prove that it's under some kind of capitalism (besides crony) because, how I see it, the United States has never experienced true capitalism, actually I don't recall any country ever having true capitalism, specifically free market capitalism.

It's not exactly uncontrolled, it's just that this economic system does not have any government intervention with it. It's controlled by the people, the money holders, and spread not into corporations by government, but into business products by people.

Literally every democratic and industrialized country moved more into a "mixed economy", thus providing capitalistic incentives matched with some regulation and a safety net. My comment on capitalism dealt with capitalism back then versus what we see now, and no country exclusively relies on Adam Smith's rubric today.

Indeed, and I am against governmental capitalism we see today in modern America for example, I think we can both agree there. Whether or not Adam Smith's idea has ever been fully put into action is something that I'm not sure we disagree on or agree on, but I haven't seen it being done. I promote more of a Ayn Rand's capitalism or Jeffersonian version anyways.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Specify some countries, please. Then, specify what philosophy of capitalism you're speaking about, as it's always been generalized in the same way Socialism is generalized as Communism.



Again, I'm wanting to see these specific countries you're talking about during that time period, and then prove that it's under some kind of capitalism (besides crony) because, how I see it, the United States has never experienced true capitalism, actually I don't recall any country ever having true capitalism, specifically free market capitalism.

It's not exactly uncontrolled, it's just that this economic system does not have any government intervention with it. It's controlled by the people, the money holders, and spread not into corporations by government, but into business products by people.



Indeed, and I am against governmental capitalism we see today in modern America for example, I think we can both agree there. Whether or not Adam Smith's idea has ever been fully put into action is something that I'm not sure we disagree on or agree on, but I haven't seen it being done. I promote more of a Ayn Rand's capitalism or Jeffersonian version anyways.

I know this is going to read as being terribly snarky, so I'll apologize in advance, but I don't have the time nor the interest in going into any kind of debate on this. I taught government and economics for roughly 30 years, including going through the history of capitalism (btw, the capitalism I was referring to generally is referred to as "laissez-faire capitalism", and was especially pushed by John Locke).

When I read above that you favor Ayn Rand's approach, that sold me on not getting involved on this with you. Let me just recommend that you get Alan Greenspan's opinion on Ayn Rand, whom was his single greatest economic inspiration, and why he testified in Congress in 2009 or 2010 that this paradigm of her's that he had accepted simply doesn't work. I saw his testimony live on C-Span and it was repeated on the nightly news, and I think it was a great and humble admittance that he had followed a faulty rubric. It simply doesn't work without creating nightmares, and we know this from history and even our own latest experience with what led up to the Great Recession as the shadow-banking system was almost entirely unregulated, and roughly 60% of all investor transactions in 2007 was through the shadow-banking system versus the regular banking system.

Shalom
 

hexler

Member
The term totalitario, which Liberal opponents of Benito Mussolini coined in 1923–24 and the dictator merrily plagiarized, only became popular as a sweeping “ism,” a putative generic phenomenon embracing Moscow, Rome, and Berlin, in the 1940s. Not so “fascism” (lower case), which originated in the Communist International in the months after Benito Mussolini’s victory in 1922" (emphasis added)

Knox, M. (2007). To the Threshold of Power, 1922/33: Origins and Dynamics of the Fascist and National Socialist Dictatorships (Vol. 1). Cambridge University Press.



There is no "core thought" to fascism as apart from the origins of the term (specific either to ancient Rome or at least Italy if we restrict ourselves to the modern era), "fascist" has been a label applied to some party, government, etc., by outsiders. Recall that the translation of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (Nazi) is "National Socialist German Worker's Party.


"Retracing the influence of the thought of Marxists such as Otto Bauer and Max Adler on the development of that variant of Marxism we identify as Fascism requires a return to their works—and those collateral works that appeared at essentially the same time, in the same political and historical environment. There is little serious doubt that the work of both Marxist and non-Marxist Austrian theoreticians found its way into the arguments of the vociani, the syndicalists, and ultimately those of Mussolini himself. The work of such thinkers is intrinsic to an understanding of Fascism as a variant of Marxism." (emphasis added)

Gregor, A. J. (2008). Marxism, fascism, and totalitarianism: chapters in the intellectual history of radicalism. Stanford University Press.



Irrelevant. Marxist thought failed to hold for a number of reasons, from the unconscious Christian-based teleology Marx had (as a product of Western culture and despite his deeply rooted anti-religious ideology) that informed his "progressive" model of social systems to the fact that it required an economic system divided as neatly between factory workers and owners that failed to continue.

Neo-Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc., are all wonderful terms that have been an integral component of basically every totalitarian government of the 20th century. One can certainly make the argument that the Nazis were as socialist as the "People's Republic of China" was a Republic, but despite a certain amount of truth to this the historical progression of intellectual movements that spawned what we have called fascist systems had their roots in French intellectualism around the time of the Revolution and that, to the extent "fascist" is distinct from totalitarian rule it is because of affinities to earlier intellectual movements shared by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Sorel, Plekhanov, Mussolini, etc.

That Russia was "communist" and Germany "fascist" is simply to say that there were similarities to the various ways in which the same ideas were corrupted. In particular, the overlap concerns a central idea in Marxism (but does predate Marx) regarding the existing vs. the desired relations between the elite and "the people" (hoi polloi, or volk, or whatever term one wishes to use to refer to those who were not of any aristocracy, royalty, or similar "official" socioeconomic elite status). Marx's proletariat was Hitler's Arbeiter, just in common parlance.

To inform you:
What you learmed from books is theoretic fancy. After all, some other people have the same view as I have, and I have reason, because I know the situation from near.

From: Difference Between Communism and Nazism | Difference Between | Communism vs Nazism

naziCommunism vs Nazism

Communism and Nazism are two different political ideologies. They oppose each other and one can come across numerous differences between the two. Some people now a days do not see much difference between the two. But this not true and the two are distinct in all aspects. The communists have a different thinking of politics and economy than the Nazis.

Communism is a socio economic ideology that aims at a classless, egalitarian, and a stateless society. The ideology is based on a common ownership and it is the community that controls the resources or the means of production. Nazism or National Socialism is a totalitarian ideology that was practised by the Nazi Party or the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

Nazism became so popular under Adolf Hitler. Communist ideology can be attributed to Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels.

Communism stands for a free society where all are equal and every one can participate in the decision making process. It stands for a class less society and has no barriers of any religion, caste or state. A fascist political system, Nazism stands for socialist policies but also ensures that a wealthy class stays at the helm of power.

While Nazism believes in extreme nationalism, ethnic divisions and a firm government, communism does not have such prepositions and it focuses on equality. While communism is focussed on a classless society, Nazism is focussed on a racist society. In German Nazis considered Aryan race to be superior to all others.

While Communism is on the far left, Nazism is considered to be far right. Communism can be said to be having foundations in some strong political ideology. On the other hand, Nazism is not based on any strong political ideology but only based on racial divide.

Summary:
1.Communism is a socio economic ideology that aims at a classless, egalitarian, and a stateless society. Nazism or National Socialism is a totalitarian ideology that was practised by the Nazi Party or the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
2.Nazism became so popular under Adolf Hitler. Communist ideology can be attributed to Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels.
3.Communism stands for a free society where all are equal and every one can participate in the decision making process. Nazism stands for socialist policies but also ensures that a wealthy class stays at the helm of power.
4. While Communism is on the far left, Nazism is considered to be far right.
 
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