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Facts vs evidence

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Evidence can't tell you if naturalism is false or true. It can't tell you if religion has any true or false considerations either. So then all that is left is philosophical reasoning that interprets evidence or dismisses it.
Evidence provides the grounds to draw conclusions. There are no guarantees these conclusions will be the most correct. There are no guarantees that the beliefs of others would lead to correct conclusions either and no evidence to boot.

How does anyone know what they believe without evidence has any meaning at all?

Within the scope of science, evidence is used to draw tentative, conditional conclusions and render tentative conditional explanations. That we are able to chat on this forum is evidence of the value of that.
Naturalism is saying go no further than what senses and logic can tell you about reality.
I don't know that naturalism compels limitation, so much as it recognizes them.
I could know everything about consciousness phenomena scientifically, and still never experience qualia from consciousness scientifically. How do you begin to measure qualia experiences in any physical sense?
How does this help us determine the value of information and the quality of knowledge? Are you suggesting that we should not demand evidence and just take some random person's word?

We are just here to discuss what evidence and facts are and how they are used to draw conclusions. Conclusions about specific topics seems outside the scope of the discussion and not necessarily relevant. But just because we do not have evidence or means to quantify something doesn't mean those cannot be determined. That seems like you are arguing from ignorance to establish your position. I can't say that qualia cannot be measured. We have a scale for pain that attempts to quantify roughly, subjective experience. But pain is a widely recognized phenomenon that has other evidence to support that it exists.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Evidence provides the grounds to draw conclusions. There are no guarantees these conclusions will be the most correct. There are no guarantees that the beliefs of others would lead to correct conclusions either and no evidence to boot.

How does anyone know what they believe without evidence has any meaning at all?

Within the scope of science, evidence is used to draw tentative, conditional conclusions and render tentative conditional explanations. That we are able to chat on this forum is evidence of the value of that.

I don't know that naturalism compels limitation, so much as it recognizes them.

How does this help us determine the value of information and the quality of knowledge? Are you suggesting that we should not demand evidence and just take some random person's word?

We are just here to discuss what evidence and facts are and how they are used to draw conclusions. Conclusions about specific topics seems outside the scope of the discussion and not necessarily relevant. But just because we do not have evidence or means to quantify something doesn't mean those cannot be determined. That seems like you are arguing from ignorance to establish your position. I can't say that qualia cannot be measured. We have a scale for pain that attempts to quantify roughly, subjective experience. But pain is a widely recognized phenomenon that has other evidence to support that it exists.
You lnow how "philosophy" falsely
so called, and religion have worked together to keep humankind in the stone age? Physically they are losing,
but mentally? Regard the posts on RF

No telling how many who attempted a even little
proto science have been killed by the religipnists.

Ever hear of scientist banding together to
kill religionists?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
How many can you name?
They're are still beating up on poor Darwin and he's been dead 130 years. Galileo and Copernicus weren't killed, but they didn't get treated very well. Even Einstein met with some ridicule.

Ernst Cohen was killed by the Nazis.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Evidence provides the grounds to draw conclusions. There are no guarantees these conclusions will be the most correct. There are no guarantees that the beliefs of others would lead to correct conclusions either and no evidence to boot.

How does anyone know what they believe without evidence has any meaning at all?

Within the scope of science, evidence is used to draw tentative, conditional conclusions and render tentative conditional explanations. That we are able to chat on this forum is evidence of the value of that.

I don't know that naturalism compels limitation, so much as it recognizes them.

How does this help us determine the value of information and the quality of knowledge? Are you suggesting that we should not demand evidence and just take some random person's word?

We are just here to discuss what evidence and facts are and how they are used to draw conclusions. Conclusions about specific topics seems outside the scope of the discussion and not necessarily relevant. But just because we do not have evidence or means to quantify something doesn't mean those cannot be determined. That seems like you are arguing from ignorance to establish your position. I can't say that qualia cannot be measured. We have a scale for pain that attempts to quantify roughly, subjective experience. But pain is a widely recognized phenomenon that has other evidence to support that it exists.
I'm not suggesting to take someone's word for it. I'm saying there can be subject evidence that can be looked at objectively. I'm also saying philosophical debate is a merry go round that may not lead anywhere. I'm saying philosophical debate is unavoidable and no amount of evidence is going to absolutely negate the other side's position. They'll look at the very same evidence and draw contrary conclusions in science vs. religion debates.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Testimony is evidence, but not good evidence that the testimony is accurate - just that somebody said it and maybe believes it.

Here are some working definitions that I find useful: Truth is the quality that facts have in common, facts being sentences that accurately map some aspect of reality and experience (correspondence theory of truth), and knowledge is the collection of facts. The fact regarding testimony is that the claim was made, and very little else. As interobserver consensus grows, the likelihood of the claim being factual increases with it.

Also, evidence is whatever is evident to the senses. When a sensation appears in consciousness, the mind fleshes it in with associated memories and logical connections to inform us of what we are experiencing and the ramifications of that (cognitive meaning of the evidence), followed by how we feel about it (affective meaning). Thus evidence and evidence of are a little different, which is why I'm careful not to say, "You don't have evidence" when what I mean is that the offered evidence doesn't justify the conclusions it is said to lead to.

Yes, testimony is evidence, but evidence of what?

The facts were and remain that the sun appears on the eastern horizon every morning as night becomes day, and the opposite happens in the west. The initial working hypothesis accounted for these observations, and there was no reason to modify it until a paradigm shift was required to account for new information. Likewise with a flat earth with edges. That idea worked fine for hunter-gatherers, but not so well for sailors. We can call an idea correct if it accurately predicts outcomes, even if it needs to be updated later. We still rely on Newtonian mechanics for mundane purposes because it works, turning to Einstein's update for special cases, where Newton can no longer be called correct for its failure to accurately predict outcomes. It's a pragmatic approach to the idea of truth that avoids the counterproductive distractions that a quest for absolute or objective truth beyond subjective experience of it entail.

One can't make a mistake by placing too much emphasis on science. Suppose one believed that science would eventually answer every question. He may be incorrect, but what's the harm? One can, however, put too much emphasis on faith, which answers no questions. Your complaint is generally part of a plea to accept the idea of a religious magisterium, that religion can make valuable contributions to man's fund of knowledge, which is voiced as too much reliance on science rather than what is actually is - a complaint that there is not enough respect given faith as a source of knowledge by critical thinkers.

Yes, but they're faith-based thinkers, meaning that their opinions aren't meaningful to empiricists. I know exactly what people are experiencing when they say that they experience God. It's the same thing they experience when they experience beauty or value or humor. As I mentioned above, when we have an apprehension (raw, unprocessed evidence) such as a spiritual experience, we then assign it meaning. Calling it experiencing a god is guessing. I have first-hand experience with that, having guessed that way once myself, when I was a Christian. Fortunately, evidence surfaces that I was not experiencing the Holy Spirit, but rather, my own mind in the hands of a charismatic preacher, the one that led me to the altar in my late teens while in the Army, which only became apparent when I moved away following discharge and began experiencing other congregations and less gifted preachers.

It's the only way to do it correctly. One must begin with common evidence or shared premises previously established using evidence properly understood and use fallacy-free reasoning to arrive at sound conclusions or it's not debate, just discussion with dissent.

Regarding your second sentence, yes, that is debate. Somebody makes a claim whether evidenced or not, and somebody who disagrees explains why it can't be correct in his opinion. Think of two attorneys debating in front of a jury. The prosecutor makes a case for guilt, say of murder. Suppose it is plausible - believable to jury beyond reasonable doubt if it can't be contradicted. The defense must provide a rebuttal - a counterargument that if correct, makes the prosecutor incorrect. If he can't or doesn't, he loses the case. Verdict: guilty. If a plausible alibi is presented, then THAT needs to be falsified, or else the verdict will be not guilty. And back and forth until one attorney makes a plausible case for guilt or doubt that the other cannot successfully rebut. But what I described is all about facts.
But how does one make a knock down argument with evidence for a debate that is mainly philosophy?

Empiricism always works so long as you are not dealing with abstract conditions.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It seems to me that when a scientist or a scientifically minded person asks "what is the evidence that supports your claim?", what they are really asking is "what facts support your claim?"

I think it may help resolve our debates on whether such things as alleged witness testimonies of the Bible constitute "evidence", because whilst a testimony could be factual or fabricated it may be considered "evidence" from a purely legal perspective, the legal perspective considers there to be "false evidence".

From wikipedia;
'False evidence, fabricated evidence, forged evidence, fake evidence or tainted evidence is information created or obtained illegally in order to sway the verdict in a court case.'

Source: False evidence - Wikipedia.

By comparison i would argue there is no such thing as a false fact, only things believed justifiably or unjustifiably to be fact.

So I think it would help to separate witness testimony which could be considered admissible in a court as evidence whether false or true from fact and instead ask the question, "what facts support your claim" in the place of "what evidence supports your claim" so as not to invite the potentially false evidence of testimony being presented as valid where I think it can be argued that it is not such as with regard to supernatural or miracle claims.

Your thoughts?
One could also state the fact that there is no evidence.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
How many can you name?
You could start with Hypatia.

Herbal medicines, mathematics, astronomy,
and other fields of inquiry have often been taken
to be "witchcraft" as you know.
People whose names are lost now to history
we're often killed for such practices, as you
also know.

What was the point of your question?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So you are trying to push two misleading notions here:
- that theories are no more than "opinions": a collection of personal views, reached on some unknown basis that may be purely arbitrary. That is wrong.
- that history and science deal in the same kinds of evidence. They don't.

I was talking about history and some parts of science.
I did not say anything about the same kinds of evidence and I was not speaking as broadly as you are suggesting.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Michael Servetus, Antoine Lavoisier, Giordano Bruno.


Lavoisier was guillotined by the well known religionists of the French Revolution, due to his close links with the monarchy and the Ancien Regime.

Was Bruno burned by the Inquisition due to his conversion to Calvinism and denial of Catholic doctrine, or for his contributions to cosmology? Probably more a martyr for Protestantism than for science.
 
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You could start with Hypatia.

Modern consensus is that she was killed during a political dispute due to her friendship with Orestes, a Christian, in his dispute with Cyril.

What was the point of your question?

That people who are certain lots of people were murdered for "science" never seem able to name any of them, yet this fact never seems to make them reconsider the accuracy of their assumptions.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You were implying there are just facts or opinions in both, and suggesting the processes of history and science are the same. Neither is true.

I had my period of everything is irrational or just subjective beliefs and all those variants.
But I grew out of that. :D
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The facts were and remain that the sun appears on the eastern horizon every morning as night becomes day, and the opposite happens in the west. The initial working hypothesis accounted for these observations, and there was no reason to modify it until a paradigm shift was required to account for new information. Likewise with a flat earth with edges. That idea worked fine for hunter-gatherers, but not so well for sailors. We can call an idea correct if it accurately predicts outcomes, even if it needs to be updated later. We still rely on Newtonian mechanics for mundane purposes because it works, turning to Einstein's update for special cases, where Newton can no longer be called correct for its failure to accurately predict outcomes. It's a pragmatic approach to the idea of truth that avoids the counterproductive distractions that a quest for absolute or objective truth beyond subjective experience of it entail.

So you don't believe, then, that science tells us truths about the world? You're a positivist like Niels Bohr, rather than a scientific realist like Einstein? Fair enough. This is the dilemma of the strict empiricist, I suppose; that entities are observable, but terms, concepts, ideation etc are not. So, given that empirical data is meaningless until it is interpreted, how do you arrive at any theories, axioms or assumptions at all? Science is based, is it not, on inference from observation? Such inference is often wrong even when it accords with all available observation, and even when it allows for accurate predictions.

To the instrumentalist, the veracity of our theories aren't really important - only the results of their application are. Are you saying then, that objective reality is unknowable in principle? And that we with our extensive libraries, our fathomless oceans of data, and our vast body of knowledge, are no closer to truths about the stars than the Egyptians who knew that when the Dog Star appeared in the sky, the Nile would flood?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
They're are still beating up on poor Darwin and he's been dead 130 years. Galileo and Copernicus weren't killed, but they didn't get treated very well. Even Einstein met with some ridicule.

Ernst Cohen was killed by the Nazis.
In part because science ignores the philosophy of ethics. And there was no other entity but religion doing so. And it's still true today.

The problem is not religion. The problem is that we have allowed the amorality of science and capitalism to run amok while completely ignoring ethical philosophy. Leaving ancient superstitious religions to be the only entities even considering it. It's long past time that we stop whining about religion and start a serious modern investigation into ethical philosophy and social responsibility.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
You were implying there are just facts or opinions in both, and suggesting the processes of history and science are the same. Neither is true.

I was implying what I said.
There are plenty of things that come out of science that are opinions and not facts.
There are plenty of things that come out of history that are opinions and not facts.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Modern consensus is that she was killed during a political dispute due to her friendship with Orestes, a Christian, in his dispute with Cyril.



That people who are certain lots of people were murdered for "science" never seem able to name any of them, yet this fact never seems to make them reconsider the accuracy of their assumptions.
As I noted in the paragraph you edited out,
people who've even dabbled in science ( see suffer no witch to live) have often been accused of Satanic actions.

Like Hypatica.

Like in this forum.

If you wish to be disingenuous about that,
go for it.

Similarly phony is your switch to "lots'
of people. I said "who knows". It's more then nine.
Perhaps you know? Its not lots apparently.
So tell us.

And list those killed by scientists for religious views.

Of course I didn't say "science" either, I said
"Proto science" and indicated the sorts of
things I meant.

Also edited out , also for strawman purposes.

The names of famous scientists who were
persecuted by just the christian religionists
are well known and were readily supplied by others
before I had a chance to. Not that I was going to
play your game anyway, but sufficient to put the
lie to your claim. Or negate the so called
"Point' of your question and the falsehoods /
strawman needed to set it up.

I thought a lot better of you before that
invidious and totally uncalled for response.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you don't believe, then, that science tells us truths about the world?
I believe that the only way to collect useful ideas about how the world works is through experiencing it. I'm careful using the word truth, and I generally change "science" to "empiricism" (or experience). Most of my knowledge doesn't come from science. It comes from direct experience and the inductions I draw from it.
This is the dilemma of the strict empiricist, I suppose; that entities are observable, but terms, concepts, ideation etc are not.
Where's the dilemma? The objects and processes of experience are material and thus evident to the senses (evidence), and the abstractions (inductions) drawn from them are only found in minds. The faith-based thinker often broaches this topic as part of an argument for accepting the reality of gods absent empirical evidentiary support. He often next asks if one can hold or weigh love as part of an argument for accepting the reality of gods, which also cannot be experienced empirically. But the problem there is that love is an induction drawn from the experience of material objects and processes including one's own behavior toward objects of love. Unlike with gods and all other unfalsifiable claims of existence, the abstraction can't be pointed to, but what it refers to can.
So, given that empirical data is meaningless until it is interpreted, how do you arrive at any theories, axioms or assumptions at all?
By interpreting the data, by organizing it according to similarities and differences, and in so doing, generate useful inductions, meaning ideas that accurately predict outcomes. We should expect similar decisions made under similar circumstances to lead to similar outcomes. The measure of the value of a proposition lies in its capacity to produce expected results. If an idea is "true," it can be used in the real world to generate predictable consequences, and different ones if that idea turned out to be false. All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is "true," then doing A will achieve D, and B is added to one's fund of knowledge as a correct idea. If A fails to achieve D, then B is modified until it does or is discarded.
Are you saying then, that objective reality is unknowable in principle?
Yes, if by objective reality you mean whatever it is that exists outside of our minds before it is apprehended by a mind, which translates whatever that is into what we experience. You seem to have a good understanding of the philosophy here as your references to instrumentalism and positivism suggest. So you probably already know that you are referring to Kant's ding an sich, or noumenal reality. Yes, it is unknowable in principle, since the knowing immediately transforms whatever it is into the language and perspective of an individual consciousness.
And that we with our extensive libraries, our fathomless oceans of data, and our vast body of knowledge, are no closer to truths about the stars than the Egyptians who knew that when the Dog Star appeared in the sky, the Nile would flood?
Disagree there, but I suspect that you are using the word truths here differently than I would, and maybe are more interested in the metaphysical realm underlying experience and outside of it than I am, calling THAT truth. That's the world of the unfalsifiable, where propositions are neither right nor wrong, but "not even wrong."

There's a pervasive view that that world outside of experience is more real than this one in here in the individual theater of consciousness- that in here is only a faint projection of that, and thus secondary to it, derivative and subordinate. But this attitude misses the fact that it doesn't really matter how accurate our understanding of what is out there is if the model we are using allows us to effectively navigate the experience of consciousness over time in a way that facilitates desirable outcomes and avoids undesirable ones. That is, if you one day discovered that your model of reality was an illusion - perhaps we are brains in vats, or Descartes' demon is manipulating our experience to appear that there is something else besides that demon outside of mind, nothing changes.

As an illustration, consider that it is literally true that you are in some matrix in some controlled mental state that you had always thought was your direct perception of a reality out there through the windows of the eyes and other senses, but you somehow suddenly learn that all of that is illusion. Now what? What do you do differently? Which of your rules for navigating your conscious experience need changing? Are you going to start doing what you previously thought was sticking an objectively real finger into an objectively real flame knowing that it hurt before? Probably not twice if it burns again. And you'll likely continue thinking in terms of objectively reality underlying the show playing in the theater of the mind. It's a heuristic now, but just as useful as before.

This is why I say that what goes on in here is primary and the metaphysical model we use to organize, understand, and control conscious experience only needs to work, working being leading to desired outcomes - not actually exist.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The objects and processes of experience are material and thus evident to the senses (evidence), and the abstractions (inductions) drawn from them are only found in minds.
Yet it's those abstractions formulated within the human mind that become our reality, and our truth. That define and generate every fact and conclusion that we will ever presume to know to be so. Because "experience" is perception, and perception is cognition. While "objective reality" remains a mythical state that we will never be able to access except via our perceptual abstractions.
 
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