Fairness and transgender athletes

[Jayhawker Soule]

I found the Williams-Braasch example compelling.

 

[Orbit]

I am female cisgender, and in my youth played softball and volleyball. It wouldn't have bothered me at all if a transgender female was on the team. I'm kind of baffled by the whole kerfluffle.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is only one real solution, and the vast majority of athletes and people with a competitive athletic background understand it… and why.

I'm assuming you have a peer-reviewed study evidencing this supposed athletic consensus. Otherwise what you have just stated is merely another opinion on the issue.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There is no white privilege but rather whites have a different genetic makeup. This and hard work favors them in certain areas of culture. It is like sports, with not everyone good at all sports, but each person may excel in certain sports.

Racially supremacist rhetoric has no place in finding a solution to an issue as complex and multifaceted as trans people's competition in sports.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The solutions are going to be complicated and specific to individual sports. And the 'one-size-fits-all' crowd isn't going to like that. So it'll take a long time to work it all out.

I agree. I don't have any straightforward answers, myself, but I do believe acknowledging the complexity and nuance of the issue in question is the first step toward finding a reasonable solution.

 

[Augustus]

I see a better way.
Let all compete as they identify.
But results, eg, records, classifications, are
separate for trans & non-trans athletes.
This gives no unfair (whatever that means)
advantage to anyone in the record books.
Yet it's maximally inclusive regarding gender.

But there are only a limited number of places, so some women will miss out on a place in the final, etc.

It also devalues women's sport, as getting Olympic gold for being 6th but the fastest non-trans athlete just isn't the same.

It would be confusing as you'd need to keep track of who you are actually competing against and would thus negatively impact competition.

Also wouldn't work for team sports, or sports with knockout format like tennis.

It's still not as bad as the ludicrous "abolish women's sport and have everyone compete by muscle mass" proposal, but it's not exactly a humdinger

 

[Revoltingest]

I am female cisgender, and in my youth played softball and volleyball. It wouldn't have bothered me at all if a transgender female was on the team. I'm kind of baffled by the whole kerfluffle.

In a team sport that's more skill dependent, such an
advantage could go unnoticed. It appears much more
of an issue with individual sports, eg, track, swimming.
In those, there are examples where a trans female has
been dominant.
Female NCAA athlete speaks out against 'unfair' transgender competition
I can see letting the cis & trans athletes compete together,
but with separate placings & records. Let the trans athlete
win & set records, but let them be a separate category.

 

[Revoltingest]

But there are only a limited number of places, so some women will miss out on a place in the final, etc.

That isn't a problem yet, since dominant trans athletes
are uncommon. If ever it becomes one, it could be
addressed then.

It also devalues women's sport, as getting Olympic gold for being 6th but the fastest non-trans athlete just isn't the same.

Again, that's not a problem.

It would be confusing as you'd need to keep track of who you are actually competing against and would thus negatively impact competition.

I see no confusion. Moreover, it might even enhance
competition if trans athletes set the bar higher.

Also wouldn't work for team sports, or sports with knockout format like tennis.

Is that currently a problem in team events with high skill?

It's still not as bad as the ludicrous "abolish women's sport and have everyone compete by muscle mass" proposal, but it's not exactly a humdinger

There have been some dumb remedies suggested &
even tried We needn't concern ourselves with those.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But there are only a limited number of places, so some women will miss out on a place in the final, etc.

It also devalues women's sport, as getting Olympic gold for being 6th but the fastest non-trans athlete just isn't the same.

It would be confusing as you'd need to keep track of who you are actually competing against and would thus negatively impact competition.

Also wouldn't work for team sports, or sports with knockout format like tennis.

It's still not as bad as the ludicrous "abolish women's sport and have everyone compete by muscle mass" proposal, but it's not exactly a humdinger

Why do you think competing by muscle mass is "ludicrous"? I haven't read much about the details of that suggestion, but on the surface, it sounds potentially viable in some individual sports.

 

[Augustus]

I found the Williams-Braasch example compelling.

Also illustrative is that the Women's 100m record has been beaten by a 14 year old boy.

 

[Secret Chief]

There are genetic difference among the races. These are not based on conspiracy or privilege but on biology.

No. Race is a social construct. Humans share approximately 99.9% of their genetic code with one another.

 

[Augustus]

That isn't a problem yet, since dominant trans athletes
are uncommon. If ever it becomes one, it could be
addressed then.

If transwomen have an unfair advantage, which they do, even 1 person missing out on the Olympics, or competing in a major final is unfair.

Again, that's not a problem.

I imagine the people competing would disagree with you there.

Is that currently a problem in team events with high skill?

It's causing a lot of controversy in sports like rugby and Aussie rules due to the dangers involved.

Being pound-for-pound bigger, faster, stronger or more explosive is generally an advantage in most sports

I see no confusion. Moreover, it might even enhance
competition if trans athletes set the bar higher

For example, many endurance sports are quite tactical, and people may use a variety of strategies. It would be very confusing if you weren't quite sure who you were actually competing against.

Also for the purpose of records, it can impact performance. In cycling being in someone's slipstream reduces wind resistance by something like 30%, and in distance running an event with male pacemakers would invalidate a woman's record for similar reasons.

 

[sun rise]

I think the proposal in the article would work for most cases. It's not perfect but life is not perfect.

But I've read somewhere that flexibility-based sports are different. Women are inherently more flexible and I've read that advantage persists over trans women. So the situation might be different for gymnastics. Trans women would retain strength but perhaps cis women have the edge on flexibility so that might be an exception.

Does anyone know if my thought about gymnastics has been tested?

 

[Augustus]

Why do you think competing by muscle mass is "ludicrous"? I haven't read much about the details of that suggestion, but on the surface, it sounds potentially viable in some individual sports.

Basically it can't be measured precisely enough to be fair, especially at non-elite level, and male muscles are still pound-for-pound more efficient, and men have other advantages so there would be no elite women.

Also, no one wants to watch the Olympics XYZ muscle mass final, followed by the ABC muscle mass final followed by the 123 muscle mass final...

So it's unmanageable, unfair, ends women's sports and ruins the spectacle

 

[Debater Slayer]

If transwomen have an unfair advantage, which they do, even 1 person missing out on the Olympics, or competing in a major final is unfair.

Many trans women have little to no advantage and rank below a lot of cis women in sports, though. I think asserting that trans women automatically have an unfair advantage oversimplifies the issue, especially when we consider that this specific question may have vastly different answers depending on which sport we focus on.

I imagine the people competing would disagree with you there.

There are also competitors who have no problems at all with trans women's participation. Personally, I think it is better to prioritize scientific and medical evidence over individual athletes' opinions when attempting to tackle the subject.

That's not to say their opinions should be entirely disregarded, but they're too subjective to be the primary driver of sporting policies when said policies need to take into account multilayered medical questions.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Basically it can't be measured precisely enough to be fair, especially at non-elite level, and male muscles are still pound-for-pound more efficient, and men have other advantages so there would be no elite women.

Also, no one wants to watch the Olympics XYZ muscle mass final, followed by the ABC muscle mass final followed by the 123 muscle mass final...

So it's unmanageable, unfair, ends women's sports and ruins the spectacle

I imagine that almost any solution will have inherent pros and cons. I don't know whether there's a perfect solution.

 

[Augustus]

But I've read somewhere that flexibility-based sports are different. Women are inherently more flexible and I've read that advantage persists over trans women. So the situation might be different for gymnastics. Trans women would retain strength but perhaps cis women have the edge on flexibility so that might be an exception.

Does anyone know if my thought about gymnastics has been tested?

Gymnastics relies more on power and explosion though. The only possible exception is the beam due to the balance required, but I've no idea how that factor is impacted.

 

[Revoltingest]

If transwomen have an unfair advantage, which they do, even 1 person missing out on the Olympics, or competing in a major final is unfair.

I can imagine ways to address that, eg, increasing
the number of athletes allowed if any are trans.

I imagine the people competing would disagree with you there.

Who has placed 6th, but was 1st in the "non-trans" classification?
I don't believe that your scenario or anything similar exists.

It's causing a lot of controversy in sports like rugby and Aussie rules due to the dangers involved.

Is it hypothetical controversy, or is it a real problem?
It could still be dealt with by stringent requirements
for extent & duration of transition.

Being pound-for-pound bigger, faster, stronger or more explosive is generally an advantage in most sports

This is so. But I'd rather see an empirical argument.

For example, many endurance sports are quite tactical, and people may use a variety of strategies. It would be very confusing if you weren't quite sure who you were actually competing against.

Sports vary in the skill vs athleticism balance.
Do you have an example of someone at a disadvantage
because they don't know their competition?

Also for the purpose of records, it can impact performance. In cycling being in someone's slipstream reduces wind resistance by something like 30%, and in distance running an event with male pacemakers would invalidate a woman's record for similar reasons.

I'm not proposing that women always compete with
men, but rather that cis women compete with trans women.
Although in many local distance races, men & women
compete together. They're just ranked in different classes.

 

[Augustus]

I imagine that almost any solution will have inherent pros and cons. I don't know whether there's a perfect solution.

There may be no perfect solution, but there aren't many worse than that one as it has no pros whatsoever. It ends elite women's sport and ruins elite men's.

Many trans women have little to no advantage and rank below a lot of cis women in sports, though. I think asserting that trans women automatically have an unfair advantage oversimplifies the issue, especially when we consider that this specific question may have vastly different answers depending on which sport we focus on.

This is simply because most transwomen weren't high level athletes to start with. The fact that a mediocre athlete does not become elite after transitioning is not evidence it is fair. You would still have to be in the top few percent of male athletes pre-transition before you start winning.

So it is the wrong point of comparison. Almost all will be comparatively better post-transition.

Fairness should mean that you are operate at comparatively the same level pre and post transition. So if you are a top 100 male you are a top 100 female. Not that if you were a top 10,000 male you are 'only' a top 100 female.

With the swimmer Lia Thomas, she was maybe top 500 as a male, and top 1 by an absolute mile post-transition (and there is some evidence, based on timing splits, that she is sandbagging to make her margins of victory slightly less ludicrous).

Almost any high level, but sub-elite, male will become elite post-transition.

There are also competitors who have no problems at all with trans women's participation. Personally, I think it is better to prioritize scientific and medical evidence over individual athletes' opinions when attempting to tackle the subject.

That's not to say their opinions should be entirely disregarded, but they're too subjective to be the primary driver of sporting policies when said policies need to take into account multilayered medical questions.

The scientific evidence is transwomen retain a large advantage in any sport male puberty brings an advantage.

 

[Augustus]

Is it hypothetical controversy, or is it a real problem?
It could still be dealt with by stringent requirements
for extent & duration of transition.

It's very real as people can suffer life-changing injuries.

In general, transwomen probably retain advantages indefinitely, but they certainly retain their larger body size which is the main problem in these sports as they have violent collisions.

Sports vary in the skill vs athleticism balance.
Do you have an example of someone at a disadvantage
because they don't know their competition?

Cycling.

You race in large numbers over 200km with people attacking and trying to break away from the peloton. Knowing who you may have to respond to is essential.

Also, given following someone is such an advantage, if someone from the trans category broke away and was followed by someone from the women's category, the latter would gain a significant advantage compared to those she is competing against.

But even athletics, you need to respond to what others do in a split second.

This is so. But I'd rather see an empirical argument.

Compare the performance of men and women at any high skill sport that requires athletic ability. That's very empirical.

I can imagine ways to address that, eg, increasing
the number of athletes allowed if any are trans.

The track has 8 lanes. You can't have more finalists.

Who has placed 6th, but was 1st in the "non-trans" classification?
I don't believe that your scenario or anything similar exists.

It doesn't exist as it was your hypothetical solution. I was explaining the problems that may occur if it did exist.