Faith and belief are overrated

[Songbird]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

 

[Sunstone]

At the least, it seems to be a red herring to say, "Yes, but you do have faith in other things."

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Because it justifies the "you HAVE to have faith in something" group, thereby justifying their willingness to walk off imaginary bridges.

 

[Songbird]

At the least, it seems to be a red herring to say, "Yes, but you do have faith in other things."

It's a maddening red herring.

 

[Nerthus]

I think you need to have faith in something. Otherwise things would be much harder than they already are.

 

[Songbird]

Because it justifies the "you HAVE to have faith in something" group, thereby justifying their willingness to walk off imaginary bridges.

Strange willingness.

 

[Jose Fly]

It's the conflation of the religious sort of "faith" with the sort of "faith" I have that the sun will rise in the morning that I find most annoying. The two are not at all the same, yet religious types frequently cite the latter to justify the former.

 

[Vansdad]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

Faith in your brakes and faith in God are really not the same thing. Just like saying I trust my car key will open my car door and trusting my friend are not the same thing.

 

[ChristineES]

People like other people to be like themselves. I suppose they are trying to connect with people on different levels. So if a person has faith in God, and they meet someone who does not believe, they still want to connect. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just it is what people do.

 

[Songbird]

People like other people to be like themselves. I suppose they are trying to connect with people on different levels. So if a person has faith in God, and they meet someone who does not believe, they still want to connect. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just it is what people do.

I can see that - people insisting on similarities in an attempt to understand another paradigm.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can see that - people insisting on similarities in an attempt to understand another paradigm.

But the similarities are pretty slim, IMO. Even if someone established that everyone has faith, they'd never be able to demonstrate that the person who doesn't even notice he has faith places the same importance on faith that the "faithful" person does.

... and I think this is necessary if you're going to use faith as the basis for an actual connection.

 

[Willamena]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

Faith means different things to different people. I don't know if you were here then, but we had a big row of a thread about what "faith" means a while ago. Apparently the same words (believe in things without evidence) can mean a whole lot of different things to different people with (as you say) different paradigms.

 

[Songbird]

Faith means different things to different people. I don't know if you were here then, but we had a big row of a thread about what "faith" means a while ago. Apparently the same words (believe in things without evidence) can mean a whole lot of different things to different people with (as you say) different paradigms.

I looked at that thread before starting this one, and what I didn't say was if people define faith as belief without evidence, then we do not have faith in the sun rising or other things that have been proven. So the response, "But you DO have faith in _____" is wrong if a person abides by that definition.

 

[Songbird]

But the similarities are pretty slim, IMO. Even if someone established that everyone has faith, they'd never be able to demonstrate that the person who doesn't even notice he has faith places the same importance on faith that the "faithful" person does.

... and I think this is necessary if you're going to use faith as the basis for an actual connection.

I would say there isn't even a similarity, but people try to make the comparison.

 

[lunamoth]

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

Faith and beliefs are important because these are the qualities that shape our thinking and direct our actions. As we believe, so do we do.

Faith is not, as the new meme tries to perpeptuate, belief in things with no evidence. Religious faith is not and has never been about believing in scientifically untenable supernatural entities. Paul's famous "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for" is not about belief in God (that was a given). It is much more akin to the belief "all shall be well, and all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well."

Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step. - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Penumbra]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

I rarely see this sort of argument coming from reasonable debaters, so I wouldn't particularly worry about it.

Faith and probability are not the same thing. I've been told I have faith that when I press a light switch, the light will come on. No- I just expect it because that's how it's wired. If it doesn't, I check to see if the bulb is blown or if there is a circuit breaker issue. As for brakes, in terms of probability, brakes don't fail too often. But a good driver brakes with plenty of extra distance anyway- so not really faith. And when I pass a bicycler, rather than have faith that they are going to continue riding straight, I get a bit nervous, pay extra attention, and give them a ton of room.

Having strong belief in an unfounded position is not proper methodology, and attempting to deflect observations addressing this issue by pointing out totally different sorts of "faith" are incorrect. A person can have reasonable "faith" in a loved and trusted person, but again, that's a probability issue. A person can have "faith" in a team of professional engineers to design a bridge properly, but again, probability. If I lived in a place where bridges failed often, I wouldn't take bridge safety at face value like I currently do.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

There is a fundamental difference between faith and trust. Trust has to be earned by empirical evidence

 

[blackout]

I would say there isn't even a similarity, but people try to make the comparison.

I often liken faith in "the word of" god

to faith in "the word/s of" politicians.



"God is good"
yet we keep calling on "his" name in vain.
Expecting 'his' help for a better life.
"Politicians are good"
yet we keep voting them in, in vain.
'Expecting' their help,
for a better life.

For truth, and justice, and equality of opportunity.

Yet massive preponderance of evidence points against the case of faith in either.
The bulk of evidence clearly says you can't trust either. (god or politician)
Faith in the goodness and just interventional power of both god and politician is irrational.

Some of you will say, yes, I doubt the words of politicians,
but still I vote for them based on what they say.
Their platform, their promises...
Yes, even though I know what they say cannot be trusted.
(as we know from experience)

Is this rational?

Voting for someone you don't believe in,
(ie, someone who is not being REAL/not a real being)
makes perhaps worse sense than imploring a god for help
who lets little children starve daily.
(ie, politicians do the same. but for real.)

Don't know what you think of this kind of comparison.
Usually when I bring it up
it just gets ignored,
like I never wrote it.

 

[blackout]

People create 'hero gods' out of non heroes.

Then look to them for things.



I think therein lies a useful and relevant/revealant comparison.

 

[elmarna]

if you percieve something you find wise & feel it is a truth you turn to in how you think things out -it is a "BELIEF". When you are confident in what the belief can do & have found when you turn to it it has a way of having a essurance in what you are & how you see it is "FAITH"