Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

[amorphous_constellation]

If a teacher with PhD told a 5th grader sit down and let me explain things out for you, would you find it wrong ?

What does that have to do with this? Probably depends on a lot of things, what is being taught? Math, reading? I actually think a good part of the human condition is just figuring things out for yourselves. I've come to question much of my own education, the idea of student and teacher is not a sine qua non to this existence, to learning about what we are to do here, or what we can learn by gaining our own experiences, the only ones we have.

 

[Sabour]

What does that have to do with this? Probably depends on a lot of things, what is being taught? Math, reading? I actually think a good part of the human condition is just figuring things out for yourselves. I've come to question much of my own education, the idea of student and teacher is not a sine qua non to this existence, to learning about what we are to do here, or what we can learn by gaining our own experiences, the only ones we have.

If you take it from the point that God is the Creator of all things and that Jesus peace be upon him was chosen by God to be a prophet, that is sharing his message with people it do means something. I believe that all we can do about that claim is to study it and verify whether it is true.

This may not make sense, but if it was true, it means much,

 

[Estro Felino]

Few (if any!) things in the bible should be accepted blindly.

so you are admitting that you believe in the necessity of Christ's sacrifice not because you blindly accept what Saint Paul says, but because your heart says it is true.

so...do you really think that all suffering on the cross was necessary?

 

[Sabour]

yes...the Bible is full of contradictions and you gave a perfect example.
well...Saint Paul contradicts lots of Christ's teachings....
men have freedom of thought. and Paul did too. so Paul expressed his personal belief which was different than Christ's teachings.

Paul still thought of a tyrant-God...a God that wants to be adored .

Christ said that it doesn't matter if we don't show respect to God. all that matters is that we love our neighbor and we do his will (parable of the vineyard and the 2 sons)

Hay, that is not all what Jesus peace be upon him says. He doesn't just say love your neighbor, he tells us very much more things.

Besides, you can say that you don't need someone to tell you that today, for you, where you live. But think about the other parts of the world, think about the people who lived in the earlier centuries when surviving was only for the fittest. Don't they need that message ?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

There are contradictions in almost any great text.. But, try reading the chapters. What is Isaiah saying they should "reason" about, in chapter 1? What is Paul saying in Chapter 9?

I have. When reading Isaiah I'm thinking it's the morose ruminations of a strange mind, the writer has the deity actually proclaim they should sit down and "reason" together out of sarcasm. What he's really saying is you better agree with me, or he's going to starting 'treading grapes' and swinging swords. How do I look for deeper meaning there, I just see it as being gross.

 

[sojourner]

so you are admitting that you believe in the necessity of Christ's sacrifice not because you blindly accept what Saint Paul says, but because your heart says it is true.

so...do you really think that all suffering on the cross was necessary?

I'm not saying that it was necessary. I'm saying that it was ... convenient. It fits the history of the time. It contributes to orthodox theological constructions, whereby we are reconciled to God through the Incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I'm saying that the theological construction makes sense to me, and works for me. I don't think the suffering was "necessary," but it sure drives home the point of self-sacrifice illustrating the level of love present.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

May I ask you something? And I expect you to give me an answer that comes from the bottom of your heart. and to use your mind, without being influenced by anyone else.

do you think it is wrong to love your neighbor as much as you love yourself?

I assure you that nobody, neither me nor you needs a book or a religion to know the truth. The truth is in your heart.

Depends on who they are! If they release their doberman one day at it kills my dog and chases me up a tree, what am I supposed to think of them? If their kids shoot a bb gun at my window, how do you react? Likewise if they are good and kind people, where could you find fault in them? If someone punches me in the stomach, am I supposed to turn once again to them with my stomach? I don't know, are we always supposed to just turn the other cheek? What about watching out for yourself?

 

[Estro Felino]

Hay, that is not all what Jesus peace be upon him says. He doesn't just say love your neighbor, he tells us very much more things.

Besides, you can say that you don't need someone to tell you that today, for you, where you live. But think about the other parts of the world, think about the people who lived in the earlier centuries when surviving was only for the fittest. Don't they need that message ?

well...yes...I was trying to make you understand that faith is not a negative thing. It's a beautiful thing...but sometimes people don't need it because they already have the truth in their hearts.

You can't even imagine how much I love your religion and in fact, as a Pelagian, I don't believe in Jesus' sacrifice.
I believe that Jesus came to teach us love (as you Muslims do) and not to be crucified. Because we attain salvation through our works and our devotion to the law (as you Muslims believe).

so my great hope is that people understand how beautiful your religion is...and how it can be in constant relationship with Christianity

 

[sojourner]

I have. When reading Isaiah I'm thinking it's the morose sundering of a strange mind, the writer has the deity actually proclaim they should sit down and "reason" together out of sarcasm. What he's really saying is you better agree with me, or he's going to starting popping grapes and swinging swords. How do I look for deeper meaning there, I just see it as being gross.

I disagree with your take. Given that Isaiah is a prophet, and given that the understanding is that the audience is a people in God, it's simply a call to return to obedience. Isaiah has God appeal to the audience's sense of reason: if they obey, they prosper. If they don't, they perish. Israel has strayed from the covenant; this is a call to return to the terms of the covenant.

 

[Sabour]

well...yes...I was trying to make you understand that faith is not a negative things. It's a beautiful thing...but sometimes people don't need it because they already have the truth in their hearts.

You can't even imagine how much I love your religion and in fact, as a Pelagian, I don't believe in Jesus' sacrifice.
I believe that Jesus came to teach us love (as you Muslims do) and not to be crucified. Because we attain salvation through our works and our devotion to the law (as you Muslims believe).

so my great hope is that people understand how beautiful your religion is...and how it can be in constant dialogue with Christianity

I like so much of what you said, and thank you for that.

I know that faith is not a negative thing, that is why I have faith

Perhaps the difference between you and me is that I believe that there are life aspects and answers to questions we can't answer on our own. Example is the purpose of life and if there is anything after we die.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not saying that it was necessary. I'm saying that it was ... convenient. It fits the history of the time. It contributes to orthodox theological constructions, whereby we are reconciled to God through the Incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I'm saying that the theological construction makes sense to me, and works for me. I don't think the suffering was "necessary," but it sure drives home the point of self-sacrifice illustrating the level of love present.

thank you...that's all I needed to know.
I think .it makes sense to you because you have a great faith in Jesus. and faith is like a gift. some people don't have it

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I disagree with your take. Given that Isaiah is a prophet, and given that the understanding is that the audience is a people in God, it's simply a call to return to obedience. Isaiah has God appeal to the audience's sense of reason: if they obey, they prosper. If they don't, they perish. Israel has strayed from the covenant; this is a call to return to the terms of the covenant.

I don't know, personally I think that sounds like some kind of hostage situation wherein the idea of "reasoning together" is used as a perversion of what that would really mean in the real world. To reason together implies that an agreement can be reached, that the two sides can work out a deal, or come up with the solution together. That's not really what's going on there, from the looks of it.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If you take it from the point that God is the Creator of all things and that Jesus peace be upon him was chosen by God to be a prophet, that is sharing his message with people it do means something. I believe that all we can do about that claim is to study it and verify whether it is true.

Verify what is true using your own senses, why allow anyone or anything else to dictate to you what this experience is all about? I'm simply not going to just trust in any of these things, their reality is simply not what is actually going on here.

 

[Sabour]

Verify what is true using your own senses, why allow anyone or anything else to dictate to you what this experience is all about? I'm simply not going to just trust in any of these things, their reality is simply not what is actually going on here.

You are totally right. No one should dictate to you things. Blind following is not accepted and rather one you face a claim you should be studying the claim and only follow if you believe it is true. Blind faith is not acceptable to God because that is not the way people are supposed to follow. God gave us mind for a reason.

 

[Cephus]

I have to agree to a point.. Hope, or faith, only becomes idol/ideal worship when it is either false, or unjustified-- or simply evil.

But what do you do about people who say that their faith is true, even if it is demonstrably false? What do you do with the delusional or fanatical? And how do you define "evil"? I'm sure that most people would define the activities of ISIL as evil, but for those practicing them, they see them as wholly good and called for by their deity. Who is right?

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't know, personally I think that sounds like some kind of hostage situation wherein the idea of "reasoning together" is used as a perversion of what that would really mean in the real world. To reason together implies that an agreement can be reached, that the two sides can work out a deal, or come up with the solution together. That's not really what's going on there, from the looks of it.

That's the thing.. Usually when you form a contract, you're bound to certain agreeable terms, or certain consequences take effect. The two sides involved already had a deal, and the solution to the breach of contract was already being formulated.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

That's the thing.. Usually when you form a contract, you're bound to certain agreeable terms, or certain consequences take effect. The two sides involved already had a deal, and the solution to the breach of contract was already being formulated.

Well I've read the bible and from the looks of it if God was like car insurance, it would fail for you more often than not. It would even threaten you and it looks like it is very hard to void out if you are dissatisfied! In the real world, you can switch out your insurance. Now their insurance had allowed them to be enslaved and attacked far more often than not, all because of minor breaches in terms.

 

[Sleeppy]

But what do you do about people who say that their faith is true, even if it is demonstrably false? What do you do with the delusional or fanatical? And how do you define "evil"? I'm sure that most people would define the activities of ISIL as evil, but for those practicing them, they see them as wholly good and called for by their deity. Who is right?

You aren't able to do very much with those people.. You have to determine what you can do. -- You're right; we subjectively determine right from wrong. All we can do in these situations is to let natural order sort things out. If ISIL enjoys the benefits of their actions, and numbs themselves to the consequences thereof, they will continue to do those actions- until their resources are used up.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well I've read the bible and from the looks of it if God was like car insurance, it would fail for you more often than not. It would even threaten you and it looks like it is very hard to void out if you are dissatisfied! In the real world, you can switch out your insurance. Now their insurance had allowed them to be enslaved and beaten far more often than not, all because of minor breaches in terms.

Are you forcing that interpretation?

What do you think should be done with murderers or rapists, or anyone else who breaks a law? Should they suffer no consequences, not even for repeat offenses? You see, there needs to be some deterrents, or incentives not to break certain societal expectations.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Are you forcing that interpretation?

What do you think should be done with murderers or rapists, or anyone else who breaks a law? Should they suffer no consequences, not even for repeat offenses? You see, there needs to be some deterrents, or incentives not to break certain societal expectations.

What do you think should be done with someone who eats bacon, worships a foreign god, doesn't offer sufficient goat sacrifices, doesn't trust in faith, doesn't follow obscure purification rules in Leviticus, that's what I'm talking about bud. The stuff I consider ridiculous for being of no actual moral import.