Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Serenity7855]

I don't think so. After all, science is just disciplined common sense.

Suppose you, and everybody else, see a big flash of light in the sky. Should we just be content with this fact without a theory trying to explain it?

You: Everybody saw a huge flash of light in the sky
Me: What was it?
You: Who cares? That was a fact. It would be silly to have a theory for that.

Ciao

- viole

No one is saying that we shouldn't use theories. I cannot see a single post that has caused you to think that. What is wrong is for science to change the meaning of the word theory to give it their own meaning, that is that a theory can be discribed as a fact.

 

[Serenity7855]

Would an example of "attributable to him or coincidence" be an undead Jesus inviting Thomas to put his hands in the crucifixion wounds? Would the pillar of fire and parting of the waters by Moses be viewable as "coincidence"?

To hold true what you've said above would require a denial of a great deal of the bible; or an awful lot of reason-bending apologetics to assert something like "he used to but doesn't now because [star trek technobable]"

Coincidence would be how the world would see it not as I have seen it. By giving the alternative of coincidence doubt is present and faith is intact.

 

[Sapiens]

As I made perfectly clear, God would have to move the mountain at his will. He cannot intervene by replacing limbs as if he did our trial of faith would become knowledge and the plan would fail. He has been known to perform miracles that are either attributable to him or coincidence though, thus retaining faith. I have witnessed these miracles and I have seen the looks of amazement on doctors faces when they cannot explain where the cancer has gone. So, regrowing limbs for amputees is a miracle that is to obvious, and quite frankly anyone who is prepare to criticise religion should really know that, but cancer, or such the like, does not necessarily point to a miracle. The old plan of redemption is pretty water tight, isn't it. You should try reading up on it rather then waste your time on here delivering one liners intended to offend. That way you could contribute using knowledge instead of quoting anti theist sites and atheists on here. You might then be able to enter into constructive debate rather then just forcibly asserting your offensive opinions with such venom.

Ah, so your God is Loki, or Loki-like ... the trickster god, here one second gone the next, hiding under the next rock ... maybe. Catch me if you can, nah, nah, nah!

 

[Artemis]

You can't, you just have to shake your head sadly and realize how ridiculous it is.

0
4n

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

You are complicating the Christian faith, even if you seem to accept God'plan as the only" logic "plan . Christianity is not a religion,it is a faith. One has to be like a child who believes and looks at his physical father in admiration and trust, and believes in him, and considers him the one and only person who protects him and always loves him. That' s what our Heavenly Father wants from us, a son/father relationship,with complete faith in Him.And for this reason He sent His only Son to this world, to reconcile with the "fallen" man. It's that simple. GOD planned this from the beginning.He knows the end before the beginning.Only way to start having this relationship is by starting to read and studying the NT and saying a short prayer before starting like "Heavenly Father, please reveal yourself to me. I want to know you and your plan for my being in this world,amen".

 

[McBell]

You are evading the point that we exercise faith that the sun will rise tomorrow with the consequences if it doesn't.

Actually he pointed out, explained, and demonstrated that we do not exercise faith that the sun will come up tomorrow.

Your flat refusal to understand what was said is most revealing.

 

[JerryL]

Coincidence would be how the world would see it not as I have seen it. By giving the alternative of coincidence doubt is present and faith is intact.

I don't think there's anyone in the world who would describe zombie-Jesus having Thomas probe his wounds as "coincidence".

So if that did happen, then the claim that God cannot provide proof is false. He can and has. I don't think it's possible to claim both to be true without being cognitively dissonant.

 

[McBell]

As I made perfectly clear, God would have to move the mountain at his will. He cannot intervene by replacing limbs as if he did our trial of faith would become knowledge and the plan would fail. He has been known to perform miracles that are either attributable to him or coincidence though, thus retaining faith. I have witnessed these miracles and I have seen the looks of amazement on doctors faces when they cannot explain where the cancer has gone. So, regrowing limbs for amputees is a miracle that is to obvious, and quite frankly anyone who is prepare to criticise religion should really know that, but cancer, or such the like, does not necessarily point to a miracle

And you claim to see nothing wrong with this "plan"?

.

The old plan of redemption is pretty water tight, isn't it.

water tight?
how about immoral, unethical, mean...

You should try reading up on it rather then waste your time on here delivering one liners intended to offend.

Cry me a river.
One wonders if your god is as easily offended as you make him out to be.

That way you could contribute using knowledge instead of quoting anti theist sites and atheists on here.

Which anti-theist sites and or atheists do you think I am "quoting"?
I can tell you now that I am not quoting anyone.
I come up with my replies to your nonsense all on my own.
That you have heard the same replies to your nonsense before should tell you something, no?
One wonders if you could truly put your ego aside long enough what you might hear...
I guess the question is if your faith is strong enough to try it.

You might then be able to enter into constructive debate rather then just forcibly asserting your offensive opinions with such venom.

I am still awaiting you to start debating.
I figure you might start debating once you tire of preaching.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I am still awaiting you to start debating.
I figure you might start debating once you tire of preaching.

Perhaps he is waiting for you to start.

 

[Serenity7855]

0
4n

You are complicating the Christian faith,

On the contrary. I am simplifying it. What I believed is based in scripture and is logical. Nothing that I say cannot be found in scripture. But having said that I do not expect anyone to follow my lead. It is my belief.

even if you seem to accept God'plan as the only" logic "plan .

Yes, I do.

Christianity is not a religion,it is a faith.

Yes, I am fully aware of that and I have clearly made that distinction in this thread.

One has to be like a child who believes and looks at his physical father in admiration and trust, and believes in him, and considers him the one and only person who protects him and always loves him.

I agree

That' s what our Heavenly Father wants from us, a son/father relationship,with complete faith in Him.

I partially agree. Complete faith in him is essential, however, it is impossible for God to intervene and protect us. We are here to be tried and tested in the flesh. How on earth can we do that with God protecting us. How do we practice free agency if God is ready to step in and shield us as our earthly father would do. How can we have a father and son relationship when he is perfect and we are not. Not until the judgement day can we ever hope to return to ur father in heaven. You say I complicate it but your idea is far more complicated. To be frank and bold, that is the last thing that God wants from us as it would cause serious problems to the plan of redemption.

And for this reason He sent His only Son to this world, to reconcile with the "fallen" man. It's that simple.

He sent his son to atone for our sins and to open the way for us to recieve salvation in and through the resurrection. Of course part of his mission was to preach about his father and to demonstrate his fathers power. He could not set up a father and son relationship because of the constraints involved. All he could do is tell us that if we live a Christ centred life then we could end up back in the fathers presences to enjoy the relationship you speak of. Let be honest about it. It is simplistic. Not forgetting that God did not send his son, his son volunteered. A very important difference.

GOD planned this from the beginning. He knows the end before the beginning.

Yes he did and yes he does.

Only way to start having this relationship is by starting to read and studying the NT and saying a short prayer before starting like "Heavenly Father, please reveal yourself to me. I want to know you and your plan for my being in this world,amen".

Yes of course, and it wouldn't hurt to fast and pray, every now and then, if you can.

 

[Artemis]

Ah, so your God is Loki, or Loki-like ... the trickster god, here one second gone the next, hiding under the next rock ... maybe. Catch me if you can, nah, nah, nah!

Yes Mr. Sapiens, the God I happen to know too, is a healer, a provider, a saviour, a protector, one who answers our prayers, one who loves everybody with the same love and waits for every sinner to repent before it's too late,according to his perfect plan. I don't want to preach here as I see people misunderstand and get annoyed. God does not want to anger anybody,He is Love. The only way to find out how real and alive He is , is by reading the NT. Do it and you will see great result.God bless you☺

 

[Artemis]

On the contrary. I am simplifying it. What I believed is based in scripture and is logical. Nothing that I say cannot be found in scripture. But having said that I do not expect anyone to follow my lead. It is my belief.



Yes, I do.



Yes, I am fully aware of that and I have clearly made that distinction in this thread.



I agree



I partially agree. Complete faith in him is essential, however, it is impossible for God to intervene and protect us. We are here to be tried and tested in the flesh. How on earth can we do that with God protecting us. How do we practice free agency if God is ready to step in and shield us as our earthly father would do. How can we have a father and son relationship when he is perfect and we are not. Not until the judgement day can we ever hope to return to ur father in heaven. You say I complicate it but your idea is far more complicated. To be frank and bold, that is the last thing that God wants from us as it would cause serious problems to the plan of redemption.



He sent his son to atone for our sins and to open the way for us to recieve salvation in and through the resurrection. Of course part of his mission was to preach about his father and to demonstrate his fathers power. He could not set up a father and son relationship because of the constraints involved. All he could do is tell us that if we live a Christ centred life then we could end up back in the fathers presences to enjoy the relationship you speak of. Let be honest about it. It is simplistic. Not forgetting that God did not send his son, his son volunteered. A very important difference.



Yes he did and yes he does.



Yes of course, and it wouldn't hurt to fast and pray, every now and then, if you can.

I am glad we have the same SPIRIT! The H.S.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes Mr. Sapiens, the God I happen to know too, is a healer, a provider, a saviour, a protector, one who answers our prayers, one who loves everybody with the same love and waits for every sinner to repent before it's too late,according to his perfect plan. I don't want to preach here as I see people misunderstand and get annoyed. God does not want to anger anybody,He is Love. The only way to find out how real and alive He is , is by reading the NT. Do it and you will see great result.God bless you☺

This is so untrue. I was raised Christian, I assure you I have read the Bible. Reading it actually showed me that it is NOT the word of God, - but of men.

As to all that healing, protecting, answering, bull, - I live in a small town where you know everybody.

Christians have no better health, or protection from problems, nor are their prayers being answered.

They are statistically no different then any other people.

*

 

[NulliuSINverba]

How can I be. It, like God incarnate, has no mention in scripture. It is 100% man made and therefore false doctrine.

So you'd view Jesus as a totally separate entity from God, correct? While Jesus was walking the Earth, there was no "God" in heaven ... because he was busy doing carpentry work in Judea, right? And all this talk of "The Holy Spirit" is just figurative window dressing, yes?

One God. That's why they call it "monotheism" after all. Right?

There is nothing that can be known that is unknown to God. An example is free agency. He cannot know what you are going to decide before you make the descision.

So God cannot know the future. That's what you're saying, right?

that is pre-destination and an enemy to the plan of redemption.

Again: You are stating that it is impossible for God to know the future. Correct?

Can you please cite a scripture that supports your view?

He is Alpha and Omega, knowing the beginning from the end but it is impossible for him to know what is going to happen to the individual in between.

This is called having your theological cake and eating it too. Can you cite a scripture that states God cannot know the hearts of man? Cite a single scripture that puts limits on God's knowledge of things. Please.

"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." ~ Isaiah 46:10

How do you define a good Christian? I am defining it as physically perfect.

It isn't up to me to define "good Christian." This is why I asked you. In my view, there is only one sort of Christian: Deluded.

But if (as you've indicated above) you're defining "good Christian" as "physically perfect" I can accept that.

No. God is omnipotent but he can only do that which can be done.

That's a tautology if ever there was one.

And does it then follow that God cannot do that which cannot be done?

For example, he cannot create something from nothing.

Then he isn't omnipotent. Shall we parse out the definition of "omnipotent?" Why do you seem so hell-bent on chipping away at the notion of an "all-powerful" deity?

He is not a magician.

Would you please define "magic?"

He took the elements that were and organised them, just as he did with the intellegences that were and formed them into spirits.

The Bible clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth. It does not say that he "reorganized" what was already there.

You know, the more I read what you have to say ... the more I think you ought to pause a moment before you begin lobbing accusations of heresy at others, because your views are decidedly non-standard.

God can not tell the future as it would affect free agency and thwart the plan of salvation.

I'm calling "New Revised Bulls**t" on that assertion. Observe:

"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." ~ 1 John 3:20

"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." ~ Psalm 147:5

Please explain how you can limit that which is infinite.

No doubt God must have anticipated what Eve might have done, there was no certainty, he practiced faith

What you're advocating sounds perilously close to the notion that God tempted Eve, aren't you? That's strictly against scripture:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." ~ James 1:13 (KJV)

Except when it is sanctioned by scripture, of course:

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. ~ Genesis 22:1 (KJV)

That man should fall was an essential part of the plan.

So even if God doesn't know the future, you're advocating that he planned for Adam and Eve to sin? Would you have been able to support that assertion with scripture before the Inquisition, or would that have been obliged to burn you at the stake as a heretic?

I have been teaching Christianity for many years. In that time. I have.

"He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches." ~ George Bernard Shaw

Become confident in my ability to rise to any critique of my faith, indeed, I thrive on the stimulation of the challenge.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say in that first bit. As far as the rest goes, are you willing to aver that every word in the Bible is the direct word of God?

Christian theology is based on mans interpretation of scripture.

And man is prone to error. It follows that theology in its totality cannot be 100% free from error, yes?

Scriptures are for individual and not congregations.

More of you "New Revised Bulls**t?" Please cite a few verses where individuals are urged to bring their own interpretation to the Bible. I'd enjoy seeing a few citations that contradict the following:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." ~ 1 Corinthians 14:33

"Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."~ Philippians 2:2

Don't you see that in advocating for personal interpretation, you are inviting confusion? What if your interpretation is in error? How do you know that you aren't mistaken?

I will see in them things which you cannot see, and visa versa. A. single verse can have a thousand meanings to a thousand people all having different needs. It is a book of commandments .

Again, you are advocating confusion and stand in direct opposition to scripture:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." ~ 2 Peter 1:20 (KJV)

 

[Serenity7855]

This is so untrue. I was raised Christian, I assure you I have read the Bible. Reading it actually showed me that it is NOT the word of God, - but of men.

As to all that healing, protecting, answering, bull, - I live in a small town where you know everybody.

Christians have no better health, or protection from problems, nor are their prayers being answered.

They are statistically no different then any other people.

*

People like you are so tiresome. You screw up you chance of getting to know God by living a life that is obviously not in keeping with the commandments of God, then denounce him because of your own failure and then have the audacity to criticize those who can live a Christ centred life and get to know God and Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost.

Do you think that because you were raised in the church and read the bible that you would be entitled to communion with the Holy Ghost. Let me tell you that that isn't nearly enough.

Mormons live on average 10 years longer the everybody else as a result of their word of wisdom and their cancer rate is a fraction of that of the world. Those that are religious suffer less with depression, abortions, Divorce, rape, peadophilia, homicide, poverty and STDs.

Every day peoples lives are save by those who have sufficient faith to heal.

Every prayer that I offer has been answered through the holy Ghost.

You are very naive if you think that they are statistically no different then any other people. Just this week I saw an experiment where a group of atheists and Christians had to drink as many cups of bitter lemon as they could for charity. Christians drank eight times more then the atheists because it is claimed that they are more driven then atheists when serving others. The US military go out of their way to recruit religious people because they are more driven, they even give Mormons 2 years paid leave to go on a mission because they want them back. You really do not have a clue what you are talking about, do you.

 

[McBell]

The Bible clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth.

So your claim is that nothing is "created"?

 

[nazz]

People like you are so tiresome.

Gee, and here I thought the whole point of this thread was to challenge your ideas.

NOT

 

[McBell]

People like you are so tiresome. You screw up you chance of getting to know God by living a life that is obviously not in keeping with the commandments of God, then denounce him because of your own failure and then have the audacity to criticize those who can live a Christ centred life and get to know God and Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost.

Do you think that because you were raised in the church and read the bible that you would be entitled to communion with the Holy Ghost. Let me tell you that that isn't nearly enough.

Mormons live on average 10 years longer the everybody else as a result of their word of wisdom and their cancer rate is a fraction of that of the world. Those that are religious suffer less with depression, abortions, Divorce, rape, peadophilia, homicide, poverty and STDs.

Every day peoples lives are save by those who have sufficient faith to heal.

Every prayer that I offer has been answered through the holy Ghost.

You are very naive if you think that they are statistically no different then any other people. Just this week I saw an experiment where a group of atheists and Christians had to drink as many cups of bitter lemon as they could for charity. Christians drank eight times more then the atheists because it is claimed that they are more driven then atheists when serving others. The US military go out of their way to recruit religious people because they are more driven, they even give Mormons 2 years paid leave to go on a mission because they want them back. You really do not have a clue what you are talking about, do you.

Sources please.

 

[Ingledsva]

People like you are so tiresome. You screw up you chance of getting to know God by living a life that is obviously not in keeping with the commandments of God, then denounce him because of your own failure and then have the audacity to criticize those who can live a Christ centred life and get to know God and Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost.

Do you think that because you were raised in the church and read the bible that you would be entitled to communion with the Holy Ghost. Let me tell you that that isn't nearly enough.

Mormons live on average 10 years longer the everybody else as a result of their word of wisdom and their cancer rate is a fraction of that of the world. Those that are religious suffer less with depression, abortions, Divorce, rape, peadophilia, homicide, poverty and STDs.

Every day peoples lives are save by those who have sufficient faith to heal.

Every prayer that I offer has been answered through the holy Ghost.

You are very naive if you think that they are statistically no different then any other people. Just this week I saw an experiment where a group of atheists and Christians had to drink as many cups of bitter lemon as they could for charity. Christians drank eight times more then the atheists because it is claimed that they are more driven then atheists when serving others. The US military go out of their way to recruit religious people because they are more driven, they even give Mormons 2 years paid leave to go on a mission because they want them back. You really do not have a clue what you are talking about, do you.

Another BULLPUCKY - not a TRUE Christian! LOL!

Mormons have better health because they eat better, AND many other groups have better health then Mormons.

You are nit-picking little pockets - without looking at real word statistics!

*

 

[Dr. Strange]

Do you really need for me to explain? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. The terrestrial is the state of fallen mankind and the celestial body is physically perfect. It is heavenly, spiritual, divine, eternal, sublime, immortal, supernatural, astral, ethereal, angelic, godlike. It is the same condition that the earth was in, or, at least the Garden of Eden was in, prior to the fall. After the fall it became hidden from the world - and Adam and Eve entered the terrestial world that was in a state of corruption, imperfection. 1 Corinthians 15:40 tells us of this phenomenon. I have taken that description and compared it to the physical condition of the Garden of Eden.

But the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another; now between these two species of bodies, in respect of qualities, there is a very great difference; the glory of the heavenly bodies is much greater than the glory of the earthy bodies that are compounded of the elements.

The glory of the celestial is one - The splendor, beauty, dignity, magnificence of the heavenly bodies differs much from those on earth. That is one thing; the beauty of earthly objects is another and a different thing. Beautiful as may be the human frame; beautiful as may be the plumage of birds; beautiful as may be the flower, the fossil, the mineral, the topaz, or the diamond; yet they differ from the heavenly bodies, and are not to be compared with them. Why should we deem it strange that there may be a similar difference between the body as adapted to its residence here and as adapted to its residence in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:40 Commentaries: There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

So, "The risen body will be pneumatikon, the perfect instrument of man's pneuma, which in the life of glory will be completely possessed by and perfectly docile to the divine Spirit." JBC[51:86:42-44].

"The model of this "spiritual Body" is the risen body of Christ, "the heavenly man"." JBC[51:86:45-49].

One last point here to make regarding your mention of Adam and our terrestrial world. Creation and the Fall coincide. That is to say that at the moment of man's Creation, all of creation is of time and space and that, is the difference between "being" and "non-being."

"The term "being" means the whole of human reality, the structure, the meaning, and the aim of existence. All this is threatened; it can be lost or saved. Man is ultimately concerned about his being and meaning. . . . Man is infinitely concerned about the infinity to which he belongs, from which he is separated, and for which he is longing. Man is totally concerned about the totality which is his true being and which is disrupted in time and space. . . . " Systematic Theology, Paul Tillich, Introduction, p. 14.

What is man's ultimate concern?

Adam then, was created (evolved) as represented by mankind having been separated from God having been created in time and space. How does one transcend time and space to return to God, to "being" again?

There was no Fall. What we call the Fall is coincident with Creation.

 

[Dr. Strange]

How can I be. It, like God incarnate, has no mention in scripture. It is 100% man made and therefore false doctrine.

Men and women in our day and age do not walk around naked. Not because they are ashamed at the size or shape of their gentiles but because it is embarrassing and shameful to be seen naked by the opposite gender. The body is beautiful, intended for the eyes of those they love and not for the eyes of potential sexual deviants, another reason why we cover ourselves, to prevent sexual sins, ether by consent or not. Your point is mute

Define, "sexual deviant" using the Bible. While you are at it, then define how psychology defines it. Then we can come to terms and understand each other.