• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I agree, and when religionists stop trying to feed children and anyone else within earshot complete and utter lies about the universe that can lead the listener to dangerous conclusions and attitudes, effecting not just themselves, but also me, and all life on the planet ... then I will have no reason beyond my personal dislike of ignorance on display in the agora to oppose them.
Well that might happen when scientists stop feeding us junk like all science is good, and that make atom b-mbs, chemical warfare, Thalidomide children, drugs.... and let us not forget that they are often wrong, such as Einstein thinking that the universe was our galaxy at one time. I wonder what they will be wrong about in the future, what we take for granted now. So don't polish your ego too much old man.
How's that bus doing? You're the one who eventually calls faith, faith, but wrapped it up in other words.... now what were they,.. hmmm
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I'll start with your last three questions.

1. My position is leaning towards, no God because of science and my understanding of the Bible, of Tillich's theology, of Thomas Aquinas philosophy, of my understanding of Church history.
What does science have to do with God existing or not? It has nothing at all to do with it.
Your understanding of the Bible is flawed if you think that means there is no God. Spiritual things are understood spiritually, as they are spiritually discerned. You should ask why it is you cannot understand rather than thinking it is wrong. There are others who understand it, and a lot of them. As for other peoples words, I have met no one yet that I agree with totally, as I am sure there are many on this forum that would say the same about me... but we look for what we understand and what makes sense to us. Reality is, as they say, what you make it. We answer for what we are, what we do, and what we say.
2. Everything comes from nothing.
"In the first century BCE, the Greek philosopher Lucretius wrote that "Nothing can be created from nothing" and this assertion exerted a powerful influence over subsequent philosophers. For a long time, science just did not have a good explanation for the existence of all the matter in the universe and it was assumed that the existence of matter was just a given, an initial condition that we just had to accept and proceed from there. Religious people seized on this "How can something come out of nothing?" question to try and argue that the very existence of the universe violated of the law of conservation of energy and implied the existence of a creator who can violate such laws. In other words, it was a Deep Mystery that science has no explanation for and that could only happen by the will of a creator."
As I have said, and as scientists have said, when they say nothing, it is not ''nothing'' in the sense of the common man's understading. It is just nothing that we know of that is part of the physical world or understanding. Even a child knows you need something to get something, that is cause and effect. Eventually there then has to be the ultimate One, and that then is the Origin of everything. By necessity it has to exist. Nothing is a stupid argument and is there to lead people about from thinking of ''something'' which might make them think of God.
"But the hope of religious people that they had finally found a safe niche for god where he no longer risked being flushed out by those pesky scientists has been dashed, just like all the other similar hopes of the past. The creation of the universe does not violate the law of conservation of energy. God is once again found to be superfluous."
Big Bang for beginners-13: Does the Big Bang theory violate the law of conservation of energy? | Machines Like Us
God is everything, and everything reflects what has gone before. If you want an idea of what God is, look around you. You see a reflection in a mirror and think because you see the reflection you don't need the source... but that is a tragic mistake, for without the source you have no image.
The problem is fundamental in the sense that most think that God is somehow separate to what we see, and so if we can't see him he does not exist, and , also, if we can explain what we see, we don't then need the designer, as we seem to have a self assembling universe. No one stops to think of how complex it is and why it would even evolve the way it does. The answers range from, ''Why not'' to the ''Multiverse'', both of which are not sufficient answers. The multiverse is only part of the fractal reflective process of God in the first place. One day science might well find evidence of it, and then they will think they really don't need God. People like Dawkins will be happy and smug thinking that now everyone will die, just like him. I find it beyond the pale that they don't even open to this idea of God more and try to bring the best of it out rather than throw it all away. But then that is because God exists, and their minds are shut off. Thus the idea is repellent to them and they cannot accept it as much as some try.

We are now what we were before. There is nothing new under the sun.

3. You assume correctly. But with "sound" understanding

p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }
"The Bible teaches that man is made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26-27). The image of God in man is not physical, but metaphysical, i.e., it refers to man's moral, spiritual, and intellectual capabilities; it also refers to man’s calling to exercise dominion in the world. Theonomy is a logical deduction from the biblical doctrine of man’s creation. If man is made in God’s image, and if he is charged to take dominion in God’s name, then he is under the rule of God’s law. Tillich’s metaphysics are problematic, but his logic is correct: When a man realizes his true being (a creature made in God’s image), he will repent of his autonomy and embrace theonomy."
p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }
Paul Tillich and Biblical Theonomy | Darash Press
But theonomy or being governed by God means what? We are part of him as he is part of us. We are part of the same consciousness that develops and makes that One consciousness. We are the base level, that which is cast out. That is why we kill etc. The higher consciousness is above and the highest is the pinnacle and what we think of as God. It is one of the same consciousness. There is no difference. In trying to explain away God, you are explaining away yourselves.

How anyone can accept that the universe self assembles in all its complexities and with complex life without any guiding principle in the first place is beyond me. Perhaps the problem is too big for most of us. Thankfully though there are scientists who can see it, for all those scientists who don't.

The reason I assumed that you must have believed at some point is because most atheist minded people always jump up and down about the subject... they are pruned out, cast out of the house, and look back in through the window whilst we take part of the feast. They have no evidence as atheist only blind faith, yet, yet, it is they who blindly and arrogantly think it is us who have blind faith.

I will leave you with this simple thought, It is better to have an existence of something with intelligence, than an existence of something without. One works, one does not. Chaos cannot form itself, it is chaos, it needs intelligent procedures to shape it. That is God.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That is, as you and I both know, is totally fatuous and represents a willful pretense of ignorance of many posts in this very thread.

And you have the nerve to wonder why people get aggressive with you. It is often in direct response to this sort of passive aggressive crap with which you are overly enamored and dependent upon.
No, he is right. You just don't want to accept it... hence the outburst.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
No it is not, I agree with what you are saying that these areas of existence can be (in Steven J Gould's words) "non-overlapping magisteria." I also think that religion should skedaddle on out of areas that it either has never had any business in of that recent progress in human knowledge has evicted it from.

How does your being a religionist have any effect on that?
I agree, but does that not apply to you also? I think so old man.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I honestly don't care why people get aggressive with me. I am opposed to them being aggressive with me for any reason whatsoever . I don't believe that anything I've said is fatuous. That would be your department. You know very well that a scientist, conducting an experiment, is a witness to his experiments. And his testimony, whether it be in the form of his lab reports, or a testimony before a grand jury should be considered evidence.

I'm sorry that my arguments make you so ill at ease. Perhaps you should find better arguments, and try to continue to avoid further polemic responses such as this. However, if you have nothing more than polemic responses, I suppose that will have to suffice. I'll just deal with it.
I don't think he actually has arguments as such.... haha
And I agree, the scientist has to witness, and, might add, most of us then accept through faith, as there is no way of us learning everything, and certainly not conducting all their experiments. They are the new priesthood. Perhaps that is why he is so angry... he might want you to bow to his God Natural and his saviour Darwin... who knows.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
What does that have to do with the verse spoken of?

This is a debate site. That is obviously NOT what the verse is talking about - though the Christians that come in as bible thumping proselytizers, spamming us with sermons, probably fall under it, even here.

*
''spamming''.... I used to like spam, don't eat it anymore... it's tinned meat.

I think this is a debate site for religion, so who is you think they are proselyting? Strange. Be pointless talking without meantioning your views, wouldn't it? Over the top reaction I think
 

walmul

Member
Serenity, Jesus died. in 1980 a building contractor accidentally stumbled upon a grave on the outskirts of Jerusalem. his find has been studied more than most archeological discoveries relating to the Christian religion. The Christian religion and the country in which these finds are discovered have to confirm authenticity. This find was the grave of Jesus and some close family members. The evidence compiled is more than in most authenticated discoveries, yet neither Israel nor the Christian religion wants to authenticate or even discuss the possibility. If they do it will be the end of Christianity and the honour of the Israelite nation. Your religion is based on the resurrection of the man Jesus, which never happened!
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
1. What does that have to with my reply?

2. You need to read the verses before posting.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

*
Are you not ''asking'' me now... haha
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Wow, and I thought you were leaving us, I guess we can't believe what you write, surprise, surprise, surprise.
He was joking. Over reaction from you, surprise, surprise, surprise.... haha
Courts of law permit eyewitness testimony. A contemporaneous set of lab notes in a bound volume, with numbered pages, could be used as evidence in a court of law or to establish scientific precedence, but it could not be used in place of the peer review, independent observation or replication that are required to establish scientific "fact".
so?
Again, that is something that has been pointed out to you in the past and you are, once again, displaying your penchant for self-convenient truculent willful ignorance.


You are the proverbial ant crawling up the leg of an elephant with rape on your mind. Try setting goals for yourself that are not so far out of your capacity so-as-to make you a public spectacle..
Very sad statement and uncalled for. Says nothing about him, but plenty about you. Very sad.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Serenity, Jesus died. in 1980 a building contractor accidentally stumbled upon a grave on the outskirts of Jerusalem. his find has been studied more than most archeological discoveries relating to the Christian religion. The Christian religion and the country in which these finds are discovered have to confirm authenticity. This find was the grave of Jesus and some close family members. The evidence compiled is more than in most authenticated discoveries, yet neither Israel nor the Christian religion wants to authenticate or even discuss the possibility. If they do it will be the end of Christianity and the honour of the Israelite nation. Your religion is based on the resurrection of the man Jesus, which never happened!
1. got a link please?

2. so what? It is not as simple as you might think.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Dude - we have had several Christians come in and spam us with 4,- 5, - even 6 page long sermons, - usually copy-pasted from some religious site.

You have been here a year - so YOU have to have seen them!

*
You don't have to read them.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That is very weak evidence, hearsay at this point.

I have no doubt that this sometimes happens, but I can imagine that many atheist might view any biblical quote as an attempt of proselytizing, even when such quotes may have indeed been presented as evidence to support an argument.
I wonder if someone uses a link to science it is spamming...hmmm
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
This thread is in General Religious Debates.

To use this "house" analogy General Religious Debates is a common area.
If you want to have a discussion without all the non-choir members attending, try one of the DIRs
Over the top and misunderstood by you! I don't believe it... yes I do.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Hardly a surprise, most theists are like that. They get to a certain point and cannot go on because to continue would require they acknowledge their beliefs are false.
One can only tell someone so many times. Plus atheist in general don't want to discuss as they, like you, already think they know. Hence the mind's are closed off to the subject and develop no farther.
 
Top