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Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
It is amazing how you keep saying one thing, and then changing it after someone rebuts your info!

This is what you said - In reply to posts saying there were many conflicting books out there and people decide which to keep and toss.

"Because God influenced the list of books that was given to Constantine by the Bishops of various churches. Those are the books that God wanted, although the Nicene Creed is itself false doctrinal."

And above in blue is what you are NOW saying since I pointed out that CHOSEN books - were later dumped - so OBVIOUSLY GOD was NOT doing the choosing!


*

But you are attacking my colloquialisms and not the point that I am making. We call that an Ad hominem argument. You are just looking to derail the topic and agitate the participants trying to have a serious debate. The point I was making is that mankind does not always heed to the promptings the first time they are made. The apocrypha was included against the will of God because they did not listen to revelation correctly, as imperfect men often do. When mankind eventually received the correct revelation it was removed. No need for abusive notations about how I say what I say in order to agitate, provoke and try and belittle my words.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Can you make someone hate their family to be worthy of Christ? But that is what they must do to be a disciple. You shouldn't make them hate their family. It is wrong. Isn't it?

Are you a Christian or a Jew?

26. and hate not his father and mother] It is not so much the true explanation to say that hate here means love less (Genesis 29:31), as to say that when our nearest and dearest relationships prove to be positive obstacles in coming to Christ, then all natural affections must be flung aside; comp. Deuteronomy 13:6-9; Deu 21:19-21; Deu 33:8-9. A reference to Matthew 10:37 will shew that ‘hate’ means hate by comparison. Our Lord purposely stated great principles in their boldest and even most paradoxical form by which He alone has succeeded in impressing them for ever as principles on the hearts of His disciples. The ‘love of love’ involves a necessity for the possible ‘hate of hate,’ as even worldly poets have understood.

“Va, je t’aimais trop pour ne pas te hair.”

“I could not love thee, dear, so much

Loved I not honour more.”

Lovelace.

yea, and his own life also] This further explains the meaning of the word ‘hate.’ The psuche ‘soul’ or ‘animal life’ is the seat of the passions and temptations which naturally alienate the spirit from Christ. These must be hated, mortified, crucified if they cannot be controlled; and life itself must be cheerfully sacrificed, Revelation 12:11; Acts 20:24.“Il faut vivre dans ce monde,” says St Francis de Sales, “comme si nous avions l’esprit au ciel, et le corps au tombeau.”

Luke 14:26 Commentaries: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 10:37-38. He that loveth father or mother more than me — He that is not ready to give up all these when they stand in competition with his duty; is not worthy of me — Nor shall have any interest in my saving benefits. And he that taketh not his cross, &c. — Every one condemned to crucifixion by the Romans was compelled to carry the cross, on which he was to be suspended, to the place of execution. Thus our Lord himself was treated. Now, as this was not a Jewish, but a Roman punishment, the allusion to it, on this occasion, may justly be looked on as the first hint given by Jesus of the kind of death he was to suffer. And the words express this sentiment with great energy, that no man is worthy of Christ, that is, worthy to bear his name, or be accounted a true Christian, unless he be willing to suffer whatever pain or inconvenience cannot be avoided but by doing some evil or omitting some good; yea, and to endure the greatest hardships, and all sorts of persecutions, even the most shameful and painful death, rather than renounce his religion and deny Christ

Matthew 10 Benson Commentary


Can you make someone hate their family to be worthy of Christ? But that is what they must do to be a disciple. You shouldn't make them hate their family. It is wrong. Isn't it?

But that is not being said. You are misinterpreting it. Jesus is saying that this is the extent of your loyalty to me that you would rather hate your parents then be disloyal to me.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you a Christian or a Jew?

26. and hate not his father and mother] It is not so much the true explanation to say that hate here means love less (Genesis 29:31), as to say that when our nearest and dearest relationships prove to be positive obstacles in coming to Christ, then all natural affections must be flung aside; comp. Deuteronomy 13:6-9; Deu 21:19-21; Deu 33:8-9. A reference to Matthew 10:37 will shew that ‘hate’ means hate by comparison. Our Lord purposely stated great principles in their boldest and even most paradoxical form by which He alone has succeeded in impressing them for ever as principles on the hearts of His disciples. The ‘love of love’ involves a necessity for the possible ‘hate of hate,’ as even worldly poets have understood.

But that is not being said. You are misinterpreting it. Jesus is saying that this is the extent of your loyalty to me that you would rather hate your parents then be disloyal to me.
I do not disagree with that. BUT the scriptures about hating one's family DEFINE what a disciple IS. OK? Please try.

If a person is more loyal to his family than he is to Jesus Christ he is NOT a disciple. Is he?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Can you make someone hate their family to be worthy of Christ? But that is what they must do to be a disciple. You shouldn't make them hate their family. It is wrong. Isn't it?

These two sentences do not make sense together.

To follow Christ and understand that he must be put first, - even before your family (not love family more,) makes sense. (Matt 10:36)

But Luke 14:26 with HATE - does not make any sense in a ministry of supposed Love.

So I looked it up - :D

The word translated hate, could have been translated Love less. Love less is listed for that word.

Luke 14:26 If anyone follows/accompanies me, and does not LOVE LESS, father and mother, and wife, and children, brothers and sisters, henceforth, yes, even his own life also, he can not be my disciple.

*
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To be a disicple a person MUST be more loyal to Jesus Christ than to anyone else even a person's own self. Are you following me?

Now remember that first sentence while you read this forth one. Jesus said MAKE people disicple according to what the Bible actually says and a disciple is more loyal to Jesus than to anyone.

According to You (your not the only one) Jesus says "make people more loyal to me than to anyone else". Can you do that?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please tell me if this is true according to you.

To disciple and to be a disciple means to be more loyal to Jesus Christ than to be loyal to anyone or anything else.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
No, you can only make the unsubstantiated claim that you do so, photo analysis of the two pictures can prove that they are the same or falsify the claim, when it comes to you two "experiencing" the same anything you're just flapping your gums.
Just show the picture of the tree in my backyard please. Surely if it exists, you can photograph it. So please take the photo, and post it promptly. A day has gone by now, and I see no photo. What's going on. If the tree exists, you should be able to photograph it.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
But you are attacking my colloquialisms and not the point that I am making. We call that an Ad hominem argument. You are just looking to derail the topic and agitate the participants trying to have a serious debate. The point I was making is that mankind does not always heed to the promptings the first time they are made. The apocrypha was included against the will of God because they did not listen to revelation correctly, as imperfect men often do. When mankind eventually received the correct revelation it was removed. No need for abusive notations about how I say what I say in order to agitate, provoke and try and belittle my words.

This is bull. You are making up excuse for why the selection wasn't perfect, - thus was not actually the selection of God.

*
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Just show the picture of the tree in my backyard please. Surely if it exists, you can photograph it. So please take the photo, and post it promptly. A day has gone by now, and I see no photo. What's going on. If the tree exists, you should be able to photograph it.
I have not idea what you are blathering about and I suspect neither do you.
 

epizano1

New Member
I assume by "stump me" you mean you can explain any such aspect to your satisfaction. Not much of a challenge is it. On the other hand, if you're willing to explain any such aspect to the satisfaction of others, then you're on. Satisfy me that keeping others from his big plan of salvation---either by not reveling it to them or sending incompetent messengers to explain it---qualifies as a marvelous work.
Seems pretty harsh. As if your only rebuttal is calling your opponent poo-face...
 

epizano1

New Member
The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. e that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan..one then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.[/QUOTE]
I love that you are sincere in faith and that you believe faith and reason are complementary and can be harmonized. If God has a plan it must be understandable. But you assume that there is no true religion except you are convinced Christianity is true. Have you studied the history of the Catholic church? I mean not in the Protestant biased books which make out the French revolution and Protestant Reformation as climactic signs of progress.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. e that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan..one then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.
I love that you are sincere in faith and that you believe faith and reason are complementary and can be harmonized. If God has a plan it must be understandable. But you assume that there is no true religion except you are convinced Christianity is true. Have you studied the history of the Catholic church? I mean not in the Protestant biased books which make out the French revolution and Protestant Reformation as climactic signs of progress.

My mother was a Catholic from Germany. She never went to church over here though, I don't know why. In Germany Catholicism was forced on the people in here time. They were, are, the biggest land owners there. They hold raffles in Cologne Cathedral on a Sunday. They use sin cards to save time. They dig you up and throw you away after 15 years if you do not pay for another 15 years. They are extremely proficient in looking after their congregation, making sure that they are fed and clothed, and generally they are very nice people. That is the sum total of my knowledge of the Catholic Church, aside from their doctrine. I am not going to critique the doctrine though because it is offensive to Catholics. I claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of my own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Suffice to say that their a pieces missing.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please tell me if this is true according to you.

To disciple and to be a disciple means to be more loyal to Jesus Christ than to be loyal to anyone or anything else.


This requires just a yes or a no answer. If you won't answer it it shows to me you don't want to disbelieve Jesus said to make disciples. Because disciple means loyal to The Christ and no one can make another person loyal.
 
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