Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Ingledsva]

... And the one error which I see that they say he said but I'm sure he didn't say is to make discples. It is not a bad thing to want to make a disciple. It is not possible though. To believe it is possible makes some people extra anxious when they try and it doesn't work. ...

What do you mean by this?

The original disciples, and their disciples, made more disciples.

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[Bunyip]

Actually I started a thread with this very topic, people who had 'lost' their faith. I did receive various responses to that, but there are factors that one has to consider when examining this issue. Here are some.
-What previous version of Xianity was it
- What aspects of the previous beliefs were 'unbelieved' at some point, and which weren't.
-What other factors besides the religion were causing the problem with said religion.

After some reading on the forums as well, my conclusion is that it actually isn't a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, it is a valid argument, depending on the situation and topic, as Xianity is not some set, strict, monolithic belief system.

So what? Sure, there are thousands of sects - it is still the 'no true Scotsman fallacy'.

 

[savagewind]

What do you mean by this?

The original disciples, and their disciples, made more disciples.

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There is a difference between finding and making. They found them.

 

[savagewind]

If Matthew 28:19 was transcribed 'add' disciples or 'find' the disciples it would make sense. It says make. Make is wrong.

I want some milk. I cannot make it. I can buy it or maybe on a farm I can find it. It is milk whether I can buy it or not. A disciple IS. A disciple is not made.

 

[Sonofason]

What you are missing is that you and I can simultaneously see the same tree and we can both photograph it and then we can compare both our recollections and our documentation. No two people can do that when it comes to any form of invisible friend. That difference renders your analogy false. But we can all rest assured that you will find some tortuous way for your god to use your error to produce a "truth," right?

And what you are missing is that Thief and I can simultaneously experience the same God. As for you photographing the same tree as others, that is not necessarily true. I just photographed a tree in my back yard. I would like you to verify that the tree is there by taking a photograph of that tree yourself. You can post that photo promptly please, as I don't have a whole lot of time to prove my point.

 

[Ingledsva]

There is a difference between finding and making. They found them.

They made one of many disciples mentioned, - into one of their elite group of 12, - to replace Judas.

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[savagewind]

They made one of many disciples mentioned, - into one of their elite group of 12, - to replace Judas.

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No I don't think so. A disciple and an apostle are not the same. An apostle is a disciple but a disciple isn't an apostle.

 

[Serenity7855]

Well, I have you beat by 41 years. Big deal.

My comments were not intended to indicate superiority in years but to demonstrate that I am familiar with Mormonism.

I don't believe any book is going to impact our eternal salvation all that much.

The book isn't, it contents can. It is the word of God. The iron rod.

As as I'm sure you know, those 3913 corrections to the Book of Mormon are also primarily in punctuation and spelling.

Yes, I am aware of that.

My point was not to try to discredit the Bible. I don't believe either the Bible or the Book of Mormon to be absolutely infallible.

I do. It is the word of God supported by his Holy Spirit

My only issue with the Bible is that I don't believe it is a record of everything that God has ever told mankind, and many people insist that it is. I don't believe that about the Book of Mormon either. I was merely saying that the biblical canon has changed extensively over the years, with books being included and excluded over time. I provided enough evidence in my last post to prove that, and yet it seems to be totally a non-issue with you.

I have the same belief.

The only books that I know of that was added and then taken away was the apocrypha. I see nothing in your post that states that and I can see nothing in my post that indicates that it is a non-issue to me. If you care to point it out I can either defend it or amend it. It is true that it is not an issue for me. If it were my only source of revelation then I might be worried. It is not, I have the companionship of the Holy Ghost. If there were errors then he would tell me. As yet, I have never been told.

 

[savagewind]

How did the people with no holy books serve The Lord God?

 

[Serenity7855]

The errors won't make you fall unless you love the errors.
The teachings of Jesus are very few. Aren't they? And the one error which I see that they say he said but I'm sure he didn't say is to make discples. It is not a bad thing to want to make a disciple. It is not possible though. To believe it is possible makes some people extra anxious when they try and it doesn't work. One true saying of Jesus is why be anxious. You cannot turn one hair black to grey. How is it possible to turn one person to Jesus? Why does Jesus tell us to do the impossible? The answer is....................................................................................................................He doesn't. But The Bible says he says it. Is it right? How do you know it is right? It has worked OK. Why did Jesus say the Israelites of his day will sin like their forefathers sinned? Isn't it because they were wrong about something and He knew their chldren would carry it forward?

What if I am right? If I am right then I prove it is possible to know the truth that isn't written. You didn't answer the question.

How did the former saints serve God without a book?



Yes. The Bible is that important but everything is there for a good or a bad reason

If those are errors then you forget that it would be clarified by the Holy Ghost to you, maybe it already has.

 

[Serenity7855]

How did the people with no holy books serve The Lord God?

They had his spirit to guide and direct them, just as we do today. The Bible is a second witness.

 

[savagewind]

They had his spirit to guide and direct them, just as we do today. The Bible is a second witness.

If The Spirit is able to guide us the Bible need not be perfect. Why do you need both? Obviously The Spirit is perfect. If the written word is also perfect then it is The Spirit's equal. Or why not?

If the Holy Spirit and the written word conflict what then?

 

[Cephus]

How did the people with no holy books serve The Lord God?

They didn't, any more than the people with holy books did. Jim Jones and David Koresh didn't write holy books but they still had followers who thought of them as gods or the representatives of gods.

 

[Katzpur]

The only books that I know of that was added and then taken away was the apocrypha.

So you essentially ignored what I said about the emergence of the Christian canon over the centuries. Okay.

 

[Idoleject]

So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

That's like me asking you to disprove that invisible blue fairies make it rain. You must admit that that is an impossible task, right?

 

[Twilight Hue]

All perceptions take place in the brain. You see a tree, it is perceived in the brain. If you experience God, it is perceived in the brain. A person's experience of God is no less valid than another person's experience of a tree.

Except the physicality of it by which it's acknowledged which leads to the crux of the issue.

You can't effectively generate trees by thoughts and perceptions alone, as there needs to be a tree present in order to perceive it, so you can't produce and show God in the same vernacular as one showing a tree to others, so that leaves the physical brain as being the sole primary object that is referred to as being God, the actual source of which your perceptions arise.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If the Holy Spirit and the written word conflict what then?

You end up with 36,000 plus denominations up to this very day.

 

[rumitoid]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

 

[rumitoid]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

Faith needs no support. Faith, in fact, eschews all efforts at evidence, reason, and logic. To support faith in anyway is a worldly distraction.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

 

[Serenity7855]

So you essentially ignored what I said about the emergence of the Christian canon over the centuries. Okay.

If you think that I would intentionally ignore a genuine question then you would be wrong. Perhaps you did not make what you wanted to know clear enough.

Why is what was authorized by Constantine any more valid than any other authorized versions?

Because God influenced the list of books that was given to Constantine by the Bishops of various churches. Those are the books that God wanted, although the Nicene Creed is itself false doctrinal.