This is called bias, and essentially renders any further conversation a moot point.
Well, like everyone else on here, you can either respond to my point or you can say nothing. The choice is yours.
Were you able to objectively debate the finer points of the arguments that have been made, then we could proceed into the "good stuff" that you are already beginning to refer to condescendingly.
They must have been so fine that I didn't even notice them, however, I am just a ignorant Christian.
You are misusing the word atheism in place of objectivity.
I don't think I am
The counter-arguments that I have made against you have nothing at all to do with my atheism. I'll be happy to only use citations from scripture if you prefer...
They are hardly worthy of being called counter-arguments as much as they are baseless opinions. I am equally at ease with scriptural references then not. The difference is that my knowledge base is spiritually founded.
When viewed objectively, the flowing narrative that you say exists in the Bible simply isn't there. Out of everything that I have written to you, that was my entire point. You see a cumulative narrative because of your faith and the subsequent necessity for one to exist. (That's what bias is.)
It is all there in scripture for anyone and everyone to read. From the division in heave that caused opposition in all things, to the plan put forth and accepted by two thirds of the host of heaven, to Jesus accepting the role of the Saviour, and so on, and so on.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut offboth temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemptioncould not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would ceaseto be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himselfatoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan ofmercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and arepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth thelaw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and alsomercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternalpurposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery
You interpret passages and claim that they were meant to be viewed in light of the New Testament. When actually read in context, and outside of the bias of the Christian faith, then it is not apparnet.
The Plan of Redemption needs no interpretation. It is what it is, a sophisticated plan of redemption. Why would you read it out of the context of Christian faith. It was compiled specifically for Christianity.
Others, as have been pointed out (namely Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and everyone else in the world who is not Christian) does not see this narrative that you claim to be a Universal truth... Were it a Universal truth, it would be obvious even to the objective review, would it not?
You first have to know what it is before you can determine whether it is universal. You do not know what it is so how do you come to such a ridiculous conclusion.
You have made the claim that there is historical significance which lends credence to your belief-
No, I said that there is historical evidence. I need nothing to give credence to my belief. The Holy Ghost has testified of that to my soul.
and you claim that the faith of countless others lends credence to your claim.
No, I need nothing to give credence to my belief. The Holy Ghost has testified of that to my soul.
I have shown how using those very same criteria you must logically accept that every other religion has the same level of credence that yours does.
No, you have not shown it the principle is obvious. To the members of those faiths they hold all the keys to the correct religion. We will all see in due course.
You must accept them as being as true as yours, don't you? You either have to do that or give some other form of evidence that isn't burdened by faithful bias or subjective reasoning.
No, I do not accept them as being as true as mine, otherwise I would be a member of several different religions, and that would be a silly notion, as I am sure you will agree. I stick with just one religion. Maybe we are all right. Maybe, and most likely, christianity is the only true religion. It is the only one with a coherent plan and, therefore, meaning to life.
The only thing that your evidence supports is that the faithful hold the belief that they say they hold... You have not supported your claim that it is a universal truth that is easily seen by anyone who reads the texts. If you want to do this, then please provide us with examples of said texts and give a defensible position that has more substance that simply saying "We believe this so it must be true."
I believe that I have adequately demonstrated that christians are all familiar with the Plan of Salvation, therefore, it is universal amongst christians. The idea of this thread is to demonstrate that a plan, at least 6,000 years old, is so perfectly logical and rational that it cannot be falsified making christianity more likely then not. Thus far I have achieved that goal and the idea that the authenticity of other religions does not threaten the plan in anyway is a reality.
The closest thing that you have gotten to that is saying that only the guidance of the Holy Spirit can reveal these truths to followers, and that's great if that's what you believe. But it's not objective nor conclusive evidence that anything you're saying is based in substantial reality.
I have always maintained that I cannot prove my beliefs and that if anyone wants to know then the must do what I did. So your statement is nonsensical as it say what I have already said, many times
