Faith in Jesus Christ

[Leftimies]

Nobody wakes up one day and has total faith in Buddha.

Why you say that?

Sudden conversions do happen, have always happened, and will continue to happen in both foreseeable future and beyond. I, for one, stand as proof: my conversion to Confucianism was a rather sudden one, you can talk about resolve found within a day, but, laid on firm foundations and steady in quality. Its been few years now since I learned the wisdom of Five Classics, and I keep going on this path.

A sudden, quick conversion CAN be built on absolute faith, and actually, it often is. Some call it realization, for some it even is their moment of enlightenment. I am going to ask this from you in the kindest way possible: who are you to judge who can have total faith and in what period of time? I know I am certain and many people here on this site share that experience.

And come on..."nobody" and "everybody" are very bad ways to open a thesis, as they require absolute knowledge about all people to wield. Which is something neither I or you can possess. ^^

 

[InChrist]

Hear oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. One, not two, making this perspective that of worshiping a false idol, something that is not God. God cannot be represented by idols, inanimate, human, whatever. This is why idol worship is forbidden by God. So, God forbids idol worship and then requires us to worship one by coming to us in the flesh, a representative of his divine awesomness? You believe in a strange God (though don't we all).

I understand what you are saying and what the scriptures say about God being One and the importance of avoiding idol worship. But didn't God specifically command men that they should not to make for themselves carved images and create other gods or idols? Does this mean that God Himself cannot choose to appear to humanity in the form of a man?

Do you think the first followers of Jesus who were Jews and Paul who was a strict Pharisee were not steeped from their youth up to believe in One God? Did they not fully understand the law against worshiping idols? Yet, they all and many, many other Jewish people acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God and their Lord and Savior.


P.S. Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know? Proverbs 30:4

 

[1137]

If you accept Jesus you are not a Jew, so that argument is invalid. They left Judaism upon following Christ.

 

[InChrist]

If you accept Jesus you are not a Jew, so that argument is invalid. They left Judaism upon following Christ.

Well, I have to disagree with your opinion. For one thing, many Jews ( I read somewhere up to 50% of American Jews) are secular, atheists or otherwise and do not practice the Jewish faith, yet they are still considered Jews, correct? Secondly, believing in the Messiah is a very Jewish thing, so if Jesus is in reality the Messiah then it is very appropriate for a Jewish person to believe in Him and of course they would still be Jewish!

I have also read that there are more Jews today, in Israel and around the world, who have trusted in Christ as Messiah than at any other time in history since the time of Christ during the first century.







http://www.jewsforjesus.org/theology/godofabraham

 

[1137]

Well, I have to disagree with your opinion. For one thing, many Jews ( I read somewhere up to 50% of American Jews) are secular, atheists or otherwise and do not practice the Jewish faith, yet they are still considered Jews, correct? Secondly, believing in the Messiah is a very Jewish thing, so if Jesus is in reality the Messiah then it is very appropriate for a Jewish person to believe in Him and of course they would still be Jewish!

Yes, you are Jewish by birth but you can still renounce it. If you switch religions you still have to convert back, despite being born Jewish. But being non-religious is not the same as rejecting Judaism. Also, yes, Jews do believe in the messiah but according to Judaism the Messiah has come. Christianity is a blasphemous religion based around worshiping an idol who happens to be a false messiah and does not fit the requirements in any way from the Christian perspective. Even if one accepts a virgin birth cannot happen, and Joseph is Jesus' biological father, Christ still is quite obviously not the Messiah. Messianic Jews are not Jews at all, they are Christians. They follow Christ. It is quite simple. To become Jewish again they will have to go through conversion.

I have also read that there are more Jews today, in Israel and around the world, who have trusted in Christ as Messiah than at any other time in history since the time of Christ during the first century.

Firstly I would love to see your source. Second, this is irrelevant as explained about. If you accept a false messiah and worship an idol you are not Jewish.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, you are Jewish by birth but you can still renounce it. If you switch religions you still have to convert back, despite being born Jewish. But being non-religious is not the same as rejecting Judaism. Also, yes, Jews do believe in the messiah but according to Judaism the Messiah has come. Christianity is a blasphemous religion based around worshiping an idol who happens to be a false messiah and does not fit the requirements in any way from the Christian perspective. Even if one accepts a virgin birth cannot happen, and Joseph is Jesus' biological father, Christ still is quite obviously not the Messiah. Messianic Jews are not Jews at all, they are Christians. They follow Christ. It is quite simple. To become Jewish again they will have to go through conversion.

"To become Jewish again they will have to go through conversion." This doesn't make any sense. Now, if you had said to become a follower of Judaism again they will have to go through conversion, then I would agree, but isn't being Jewish much more than religion?

How is it so obvious to you that Christ is not the Messiah?

 

[1137]

Forget Judaism though, why would I accept a supposed messiah who literally accomplished nothing in terms of saving the world?

 

[1137]

*edit*

Totally irrelevant to what you quoted but it's a neat perspective.

 

[InChrist]

Forget Judaism though, why would I accept a supposed messiah who literally accomplished nothing in terms of saving the world?

I don't know why you would accept a messiah who has accomplished nothing in terms of saving the world, I wouldn't if I were you and I wouldn't myself. But I would accept a Messiah that has paid for the sins of the world, conquered death, risen from the grave, promised eternal life, provides spiritual peace and promises to come again and establish physical peace in this world and into eternity.


Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know? Proverbs 30:4

 

[1137]

I don't know why you would accept a messiah who has accomplished nothing in terms of saving the world, I wouldn't if I were you and I wouldn't myself. But I would accept a Messiah that has paid for the sins of the world, conquered death, risen from the grave, promised eternal life, provides spiritual peace and promises to come again and establish physical peace in this world and into eternity.

Maybe when he finishes the job I'll accept him. For now, all Christ has accomplished is giving people this false hope in eternal life and such (though really it was his followers who made much of this up).

 

[InChrist]

Maybe when he finishes the job I'll accept him. For now, all Christ has accomplished is giving people this false hope in eternal life and such (though really it was his followers who made much of this up).

The problem the scriptures and words of Jesus show with this kind of thinking is that if He (Christ) who fulfilled all the detailed prophecies related to the first coming to pay for the sins of the world is rejeced as Messiah, then it will be the antichrist who you will accept. Someone who seemingly appears as a savior offering hope and answers for the problems of the world, including a peace covenant with Israel. But someone who cannot show he is a descendent of David because the genealogy records have been gone since the destruction of the temple in 7O AD. The scriptures indicate that this person will bring a short-lived false peace and then become more cruel and evil than Hitler ever was, but many will have believed and accepted him.

I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. John 5:43

 

[1137]

The problem the scriptures and words of Jesus show with this kind of thinking is that if He (Christ) who fulfilled all the detailed prophecies related to the first coming to pay for the sins of the world is rejeced as Messiah, then it will be the antichrist who you will accept. Someone who seemingly appears as a savior offering hope and answers for the problems of the world, including a peace covenant with Israel. But someone who cannot show he is a descendent of David because the genealogy records have been gone since the destruction of the temple in 7O AD. The scriptures indicate that this person will bring a short-lived false peace and then become more cruel and evil than Hitler ever was, but many will have believed and accepted him.

I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. John 5:43

The Hebrew scriptures clearly state there will be war no more, so you seem to believe in a God who's word cannot be relied on.

 

[Muffled]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

The book of Isaiah was written around 700 B.C. (700 years before Christ walked the earth and about 750 years before the book of Matthew was written).

Isaiah 45:17 "But Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever.

Isaiah 45:17 prophesies salvation through Christ.

I don't think the tie to Jesus is obvious in this verse. Believing that Jesus is God in the flesh, the tie is there anyway because it is talking about Jehovah.

I believe Is 45:21 ties Jesus in as Savior and by context includes the previous verses.

 

[Muffled]

The Hebrew scriptures clearly state there will be war no more, so you seem to believe in a God who's word cannot be relied on.

I believe there will be a time when there is no more war. I can't construe how you could interpret that as a God who can't be relied on.

 

[Muffled]

By the way, I'm curious. Do you believe that prophets can foretell the future any better than non-prophets?

Yes. I have witnessed people try to reead Tarot cards and completely fail but I give them good readings because my readings come from God.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes. I have witnessed people try to reead Tarot cards and completely fail but I give them good readings because my readings come from God.

Hey, Muffled. Yes, I would assume that you believe in the prophetic power of prognostication. For myself, that looks like magical thinking, and I can't accept a magic-doing God.

So if a prophet claims that he can foretell the future, I reject him as legitimately knowing anything about God.

Anyway, I was wondering how Riverwolf viewed the issue, but thanks for answering.

 

[1137]

I believe there will be a time when there is no more war. I can't construe how you could interpret that as a God who can't be relied on.

If Christ is the messiah, and the messiah originally was supposed to end war, then God obviously changed his mind. He promised a war-ending messiah and gave us one whom clearly failed.

 

[1137]

Hey, Muffled. Yes, I would assume that you believe in the prophetic power of prognostication. For myself, that looks like magical thinking, and I can't accept a magic-doing God.

So if a prophet claims that he can foretell the future, I reject him as legitimately knowing anything about God.

Anyway, I was wondering how Riverwolf viewed the issue, but thanks for answering.

God doesn't do magic, people do. Why does "magic-doing" invalidate a prophecy?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

God doesn't do magic, people do.

Neither God nor people do magic but lots of people claim to do magic, often in the name of their God. They do it to prove to magic-believing folk that they actually speak for God. Sometimes it's healing the sick; other times it's foretelling the future. Usually the magic is done later, by the prophet's biographers. It's so much easier to part the Red Sea with words than to do it in real life.

Why does "magic-doing" invalidate a prophecy?

Prophecy is magic, and no true God would do magic. If a prophet claims that his God has whispered special knowledge of the fulture into his ear, then that prophet is not speaking for a true God. Neither God nor His prophets can break the natural laws.

It's like the scripture thing. No true God would send actual words down to mankind -- most especially not words set in stone or in scripture. That's the sort of error which no true God would ever make.

Just my opinion, but it seems pretty obvious.

 

[InChrist]

The Hebrew scriptures clearly state there will be war no more, so you seem to believe in a God who's word cannot be relied on.

Yes, the Hebrew scriptures clearly state that when Messiah rules from the throne of David in Jerusalem, Israel there will be no more war. While reading the scriptures it is important to ask the who, when, where, why questions. In reference to the prophetic time frame for world peace under Messiah a very important question is, "when?".