Faith in permanent death

[Koldo]

Then your identity criteria are broken.

Or yours is.

Well, yes, he won't be you (object), but he certainly will be you (person).

Define 'person'.

 

[Copernicus]

There is an elephant in the room here--memory. I think that memory is essential to consciousness. That is, it depends on a discrepancy between memories of past experiences and present experience to which we add imagined future experiences. Present experience is continually shifted to past experience. The essence of self is that collection of past memories. If you lose all past memories, then you have no basis for projected future experience, and you cannot really experience a conscious "self".

Consciousness is a dynamic "stream" that crucially depends on memory for its existence. That is why "stream" is such a popular metaphor for consciousness--the flow of memory. The "self" is something of an illusion, because it is constantly changing as new memories are created. If we take a "snapshot" of the "stream", then that is one "self" captured at a moment in time. Each snapshot is literally a different person, but what ties all the selves together is memory.

Let's say that you could replicate your brain so that there were two of you with the same memories. That would actually be two new "selves" that happened to have identical past memories, but the now separated "streams" would diverge as their separate "present" experiences formed different past memories. In a sense, as our consciousness progresses, we are constantly dying and being reborn with slightly different memories. True death is simply lack of rebirth--an end to the chain of memories shared by all our past selves.

Now let's think about the concept of reincarnation or an afterlife. If you follow the memory-based concept of "self" that I have been describing, it would have to be a continuation of accumulated memory. There is no essence of "self" with memories distilled away. We know the central role that memory plays intuitively, and that is why religions that preach reincarnation sustain themselves on anecdotes of memories of past lives. When a child is selected to become the new "Dalai Lama", that child must demonstrate some link to the past "self". It is exposed to belongings of the deceased in order to determine if it expresses an interest in objects that were once possessed by the deceased. There is no reincarnation without some vestige of memory.

 

[waitasec]

Well I was talking about a situation in which you would know for sure that there are only two possibilities. In this case, there would be no maybe about it.

an afterlife isn't a situation that you know about do you.... it's speculation... and you seem to be integrating faith with it.

 

[atanu]

There is an elephant in the room here--memory. I think that memory is essential to consciousness. That is, it depends on a discrepancy between memories of past experiences and present experience to which we add imagined future experiences. Present experience is continually shifted to past experience. The essence of self is that collection of past memories. If you lose all past memories, then you have no basis for projected future experience, and you cannot really experience a conscious "self".

Copernicus

I like this post yet do not agree. What compares and contrasts the past memories with present ones and wishes for a certain future? A constant unborn factor can only see and know the changes.

Kindly do bear with me for the following citation from an Upanishad:

Isavasya Upanishad
4.Unmoving, It is one, faster than the mind. The senses cannot reach It, for It proceeds ahead. Remaining static It overtakes others that run. On account of Its presence, Matarsiva (the wind) conducts the activities of beings.

5.It moves; It moves not. It is far; It is near. It is within all; It is without all.​

 

[839311]

an afterlife isn't a situation that you know about do you.... it's speculation... and you seem to be integrating faith with it.

As Ive already repeated before quite a few times, I don't have faith in it. Ive acknowledged the possibility that this life is all there is. I might die, and that might be that. To me, its a mystery that I feel no need to take a definite position on. I think we don't have enough information on the nature of consciousness and the nature of reality to be able to justify taking a definite position.

 

[839311]

Consciousness is a dynamic "stream" that crucially depends on memory for its existence. That is why "stream" is such a popular metaphor for consciousness--the flow of memory. The "self" is something of an illusion, because it is constantly changing as new memories are created. If we take a "snapshot" of the "stream", then that is one "self" captured at a moment in time. Each snapshot is literally a different person, but what ties all the selves together is memory.

Let's say that you could replicate your brain so that there were two of you with the same memories. That would actually be two new "selves" that happened to have identical past memories, but the now separated "streams" would diverge as their separate "present" experiences formed different past memories. In a sense, as our consciousness progresses, we are constantly dying and being reborn with slightly different memories. True death is simply lack of rebirth--an end to the chain of memories shared by all our past selves.

Wow! Now that takes faith to accept!

Now let's think about the concept of reincarnation or an afterlife. If you follow the memory-based concept of "self" that I have been describing, it would have to be a continuation of accumulated memory. There is no essence of "self" with memories distilled away. We know the central role that memory plays intuitively, and that is why religions that preach reincarnation sustain themselves on anecdotes of memories of past lives. When a child is selected to become the new "Dalai Lama", that child must demonstrate some link to the past "self". It is exposed to belongings of the deceased in order to determine if it expresses an interest in objects that were once possessed by the deceased. There is no reincarnation without some vestige of memory.

I disagree. I think consciousness has nothing to do with memory. Consider when you meditate and clear your mind. You have no thoughts at all, yet you are conscious. Consciousness, I think, is separate from thoughts, memories, imagination, intelligence, emotion, and anything other than this basic...'consciousness'. All those other things are more like add-ons.

 

[Koldo]

So what you are indicating is that there cannot be two exactly same individuals because they may occupy different time and space and have different experiences, although they have exactly the same brain-senses. What that means? To me it means that an individual is not just the brain but the whole universe of his frame with its meanings and words and memories. And individuals brain is a machine in that.

Then, one must investigate how the individual "I am this" comes up in the whole consciousness-space. In all diverse individuals the sense "I exist" is common. The association with a particular body is effect of limiting function of sense of touch mainly and also of 4 other sense functions. So, the consciousness of "I am this body" is secondary, based on the primary all pervasive sense of "I exist".

Interesting thoughts. I agree you, albeit you make use of many subjective terms so it is complicated to know how much i agree with you, but either way i do.

A mind rooted in "I am" consciousness does not die because of loss of body, since the root of consciousness is not the body.

A complicated subject, i must say.
For now, i would like to say that it may die ( or better said, become inactive ) because the body is the tool by which it manifests. Just like a RAM memory that was designed with an unique format that only fits in another equally unique motherboard. Once the motherboard is destroyed the RAM memory becomes useless, and inactive forever.

 

[atanu]

A complicated subject, i must say.
For now, i would like to say that it may die ( or better said, become inactive ) because the body is the tool by which it manifests. Just like a RAM memory that was designed with an unique format that only fits in another equally unique motherboard. Once the motherboard is destroyed the RAM memory becomes useless, and inactive forever.

Ponder again. If that was true then the universe would be very inactive.

 

[Copernicus]

I like this post yet do not agree. What compares and contrasts the past memories with present ones and wishes for a certain future? A constant unborn factor can only see and know the changes.

You cannot "know" anything without a memory whence knowledge can be retrieved. As for what calculates comparisons, I would attribute that to other brain-based cognitive function. The binary distinction between sameness and difference is fundamental to human, as well as computer, "cognition". I said that memory was essential to consciousness, but not necessarily its only component. I do think that consciousness is something that we can replicate in machines--in principle, at least. After all, the brain is a physical "machine", is it not?

Kindly do bear with me for the following citation from an Upanishad:

Thanks, but I just did not see its significance in the same sense that you did.

Wow! Now that takes faith to accept!

Faith based on observation and reasoning. Nothing wrong with that. We could not get through life without an ability to put some level of faith (or trust) in our beliefs. This kind of faith, unlike religious faith, is modifiable in the face of counterevidence.

I disagree. I think consciousness has nothing to do with memory. Consider when you meditate and clear your mind. You have no thoughts at all, yet you are conscious. Consciousness, I think, is separate from thoughts, memories, imagination, intelligence, emotion, and anything other than this basic...'consciousness'. All those other things are more like add-ons.

I do not agree with you that you have "no thoughts at all" when you meditate. In fact, the meditation techniques I learned were designed to focus attention on one thought in order to avoid the distraction of other thoughts. And I think that consciousness is really still very much a "stream" of cognitive triplicates: past experiences, present experience, and expected future experiences. All three are present during the controlled stream of thought that we call "meditation". Meditation is a technique for filtering and focusing the stream of thought, not cancelling it out.

 

[Tristesse]

Wow! Now that takes faith to accept!



I disagree. I think consciousness has nothing to do with memory. Consider when you meditate and clear your mind. You have no thoughts at all, yet you are conscious. Consciousness, I think, is separate from thoughts, memories, imagination, intelligence, emotion, and anything other than this basic...'consciousness'. All those other things are more like add-ons.

When you meditate your mind is still thinking. If it weren't you'd either be dead or just brain dead.

 

[Koldo]

Ponder again. If that was true then the universe would be very inactive.

Do you mean the whole universe is 'consciousness'?

 

[atanu]

You cannot "know" anything without a memory whence knowledge can be retrieved. As for what calculates comparisons, I would attribute that to other brain-based cognitive function. The binary distinction between sameness and difference is fundamental to human, as well as computer, "cognition". I said that memory was essential to consciousness, but not necessarily its only component. I do think that consciousness is something that we can replicate in machines--in principle, at least. After all, the brain is a physical "machine", is it not?

That still does not invalidate my point that there has to be something that keeps track and understands both the base and the changes.

Thanks, but I just did not see its significance in the same sense that you did.

Just could not resist, very well knowing the outcome.

 

[839311]

When you meditate your mind is still thinking. If it weren't you'd either be dead or just brain dead.

Definition of think
transitive verb
1
: to form or have in the mind

2
: to have as an intention <thought to return early>

3
a : to have as an opinion <think it's so> b : to regard as : consider <think the rule unfair>

4
a : to reflect on : ponder <think the matter over> b : to determine by reflecting <think what to do next>

5
: to call to mind : remember <he never thinks to ask how we do>

6
: to devise by thinking —usually used with up <thought up a plan to escape>

7
: to have as an expectation : anticipate <we didn't think we'd have any trouble>

8
a : to center one's thoughts on <talks and thinks business> b : to form a mental picture of

9
: to subject to the processes of logical thought <think things out>

intransitive verb
1
a : to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference : reason b : to have in the mind or call to mind a thought

2
a : to have the mind engaged in reflection : meditate b : to consider the suitability <thought of her for president>

3
: to have a view or opinion <thinks of himself as a poet>

4
: to have concern —usually used with of <a man must think first of his family>

5
: to consider something likely : suspect <may happen sooner than you think>

— think·er noun
— think better of : to reconsider and make a wiser decision



Thinking is an active process using the powers of the mind. Consciousness doesn't imply thought. Take mental vegetables, for example. They are conscious, but they may not be doing much thinking at all, if any.

 

[839311]

Meditation is a technique for filtering and focusing the stream of thought, not cancelling it out.

I disagree. It can be for filtering and focusing, but it can also be for unfocusing and clearing the mind. This is actually a quite common goal of many people who meditate.

 

[atanu]

Do you mean the whole universe is 'consciousness'?

I think we may need to take it up in a separate thread, if there is interest.

 

[atanu]

I disagree. It can be for filtering and focusing, but it can also be for unfocusing and clearing the mind. This is actually a quite common goal of many people who meditate.

I agree here. There is a bit more to it though, as per my understanding.

 

[Copernicus]

That still does not invalidate my point that there has to be something that keeps track and understands both the base and the changes.

Please remember that I have not proposed a complete theory of consciousness, nor do I think that I can. What I have said is that memory is minimally necessary for there to be consciousness. Even a simple Turing machine has more to it than the moving tape. There are frames on the tape that represent past, present, and future states. There is a pointer that advances along the tape (or the tape itself advances) so that a new "present" frame comes into focus. There is a pointer to a register that contains the change of state instruction--the "volition". I am not saying that the human mind itself is a simple Turing machine, but there are interesting analogs between computation with such a machine and human cognition. Human minds are far more complex, but memory is a key component in consciousness. It is what makes one a "self".

Just could not resist, very well knowing the outcome.

And I could not resist telling you the outcome.

I disagree. It can be for filtering and focusing, but it can also be for unfocusing and clearing the mind. This is actually a quite common goal of many people who meditate.

No, Tristesse was exactly right. My consciousness stops when I undergo general anesthesia--perhaps the closest I have come to a state of being dead. I had no sense of passage of time--the moving stream of consciousness. I had no memory of what transpired while under anesthesia (thankfully). One moment, I was lying conscious and wondering when I would fall asleep. The next moment, I was being awakened. It was not like sleep, where you experience some level of consciousness in the form of dreams. It was not like meditation, where you focus your mind on some steady stream of thought to the exclusion of all others.

When you meditate, you alter and focus your stream of consciousness. You do not end it. If you practice pranayama (breathing control), then you focus on a rhythmic breathing technique. You are always focused on something. By "clearing the mind", all you do is filter out distractions from what you are focused on. Have you never been taught meditation techniques?

 

[atanu]

Please remember that I have not proposed a complete theory of consciousness,

What audacity.

nor do I think that I can.

Ahh! I saw it late.

What I have said is that memory is minimally necessary for their to be consciousness. Even a simple Turing machine has more to it than the moving tape. There are frames on the tape that represent past, present, and future states. There is a pointer that advances along the tape (or the tape itself advances) so that a new "present" frame comes into focus. There is a pointer to a register that contains the change of state instruction--the "volition". I am not saying that the human mind itself is a simple Turing machine, but there are interesting analogs between computation with such a machine and human cognition. Human minds are far more complex, but memory is a key component in consciousness. It is what makes one a "self".

Now. Once you are remembering analogs, you must, remember the analogs fully. Don't forget the person who reads and understands data.

And I could not resist telling you the outcome.

You are as weak as me. Or as reckless.

 

[outhouse]

when you take your last breath, the mind will shortly follow. Does a computer compute with the chord pulled?? NO

No one has ever came back from a dirt nap. no one ever will.

 

[PolyHedral]

Don't forget the person who reads and understands data.

I do not understand how you arrived here. At the fundamental level of computation, there is no understanding, only execution.