Faith in permanent death

[Tristesse]

Ahh, the brain thing again. The brain argument that keeps coming up doesn't address the first 4 options I listed. Might as well give it up, because it doesn't address the issues at all. I happen to agree with you that the brain very probably causes consciousness, although this hasn't been proven. What does that suggest? That this idea has very little bearing on the OP.

If you're discussing conciousness, of course the brain is going to be discussed. Your options aren't valid unless you have evidence to back them up.

The brain does control your conciousness. For example, split brain patients, where one side of the brain has a completely different personality then the other side. Things that we would classify as conciousness, such as personhood have been altered.

 

[839311]

Your options aren't valid unless you have evidence to back them up.

Oh, Im sorry. Listen up world! Lets stop all speculation about anything for which we don't have conclusive evidence for!... While were at it, lets tell those pesky theoretical physicists to stop their work immediately!!!

 

[Oneatatime]

Oh, Im sorry. Listen up world! Lets stop all speculation about anything for which we don't have conclusive evidence for!... While were at it, lets tell those pesky theoretical physicists to stop their work immediately!!!

Theoretical physics has demonstrated it's worth. What has speculation about life after death accomplished beyond the sale of books and other merchandise to the gulliable?

 

[839311]

Theoretical physics has demonstrated it's worth.

So has philosophy.

 

[839311]

What has speculation about life after death accomplished beyond the sale of books and other merchandise to the gulliable?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What has speculation about life after death accomplished beyond the sale of books and other merchandise to the gulliable?

Comforting thoughts and fantasies for the unskeptical.

 

[Tristesse]

Oh, Im sorry. Listen up world! Lets stop all speculation about anything for which we don't have conclusive evidence for!... While were at it, lets tell those pesky theoretical physicists to stop their work immediately!!!

I'm not saying stop speculation. I'm saying that unless there is some evidence to think that there is life after death, there's no reason to think it's going to be a fruitful investigation.

Everyone is free to conduct their own speculation about what happens after death, but with no evidence to back them up, it's a useless claim. And it's indistinguishable from any other claim that has no evidence.

 

[839311]

Comforting thoughts and fantasies for the unskeptical.

I thought you were the one making the assumption. Hmm...

And yes, it is a positive thing to acknowledge the possibilities. A lot better than your emo faith in permanent death.

 

[Looncall]

Yes, it does:

1. If there is no "us beyond death", then it's a moot point whether any god-like beings are "planning to take care of us beyond death".

4. If consciousness needs a brain, then "consciousness energy" cannot "float around through infinite space".

Also, the phrase "consciousness energy" is just word salad. Energy is not a substance.

 

[Oneatatime]

So has philosophy.

You didn't answer the question. What has speculation about life after death accomplished? To my knowledge it's generated no testable hypothesis from which we can identify possible avenues of research to address this question.

As I've said previously it's a pointless question anyway because it's unfalsifable. This is a common problem when individuals decide that something is true or probable in the absence of evidence which would lead to such a claim or anything which can disprove the claim.

When it comes to the afterlife there is no smoking gun. Indeed the evidence would suggest that we survive as long as our brains survive. This doesn't discount the possibility of something surviving brain death but there is no evidence support this beyond the tricks of cold reading mediums who claim to speak to the dead, the accounts of those who have died and been brought back to life and those who claim to have seen ghost, both which can be explained more rationally.

 

[PolyHedral]

And yes, it is a positive thing to acknowledge the possibilities.

And a Pratchett quote explains this far more eloquently than I can.

Your comments have been taken on board, Senior Wrangler. And they will be thrown over the side as soon as we leave harbour.

I have acknowledged the possibilities involved. I don't even have to leave harbor to throw them over the side.

 

[bajramovic92]

Well, possibly, if science does get to a point far enough, we may be able to transfer our thoughts/memories/etc. onto a huge computer database or something like that and forever live in a virtual environment (or maybe just much longer than the human body can last). Will this ever happen? I don't know. Is it possible? Maybe.

 

[839311]

You didn't answer the question. What has speculation about life after death accomplished?

You really want me to answer this for you? Fine. Here are just a few I came up with quickly.

1. Speculation in life after death is interesting. Just in itself, this is enough to be of value. Many people are very much interested in knowing what happens at death, hence we speculate about the range of possibilities.
2. Interest in consciousness is certainly motivating some people to become neuroscientists in order to try to figure it out. Thus, the field of neuroscience benefits from interest in the hard problem of consciousness.
3. Most people want there to be an afterlife. Its comforting to think that this life might not be all there is.

To my knowledge it's generated no testable hypothesis from which we can identify possible avenues of research to address this question

Do you have a hypothesis as to how we can test the cosmos to see if it is infinite or not? Didn't think so. Does that mean we just stop thinking about it completely? Ofcourse not. The problem is there, staring us in the face, with perhaps incredibly important consequences for us. I would say that the issue of whether or not death is permanent also has some important consequences for us.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I thought you were the one making the assumption.

You appear to have a number of incorrect thoughts.

 

[outhouse]

when you pull the plug on a computer, does it continue to think???????

 

[idav]

when you pull the plug on a computer, does it continue to think???????

Nope the concsiousness in the ram gets reset but the potential is still in the hard drive and at least the OS will get loaded back into memory once booted back up. If the hard drive crashes the computer is screwed unless the data can be transferred before crashing.

Reminds me of this movie where they had technology that could tap into the brain and save the memories to disc before the person completely died.

 

[Copernicus]

Ahh, the brain thing again. The brain argument that keeps coming up doesn't address the first 4 options I listed. Might as well give it up, because it doesn't address the issues at all. I happen to agree with you that the brain very probably causes consciousness, although this hasn't been proven. What does that suggest? That this idea has very little bearing on the OP.

That is a very puzzling reply. The "brain thing", as you put it, responds to the question you asked in the OP: ".....why have you decided to put your faith in the idea that when we die we permanently cease to exist". What you call "options" are really just imaginary scenarios. In fact, why stop at 5 imaginary scenarios? They have nothing to do with why so many people believe that the mind fails to survive death. My answer to your question was that observation of mind-brain interaction strongly suggests that life ends with brain death. Your scenarios are based on no observations about anything--just pure imagination. Indeed, you could use the same argument form to challenge just about any belief anyone could have about anything. Why believe that there is even a brain inside your head when a god could have planted that false idea in your thoughts? Why believe anything at all when you can imagine alternative possibilities?

 

[839311]

What you call "options" are really just imaginary scenarios. In fact, why stop at 5 imaginary scenarios?

FIrst, are you deriding imagination? It sounds like it. Imagination is one of the most powerful, effective tools available to the human mind. I don't want to believe that you don't use imagination at all to solve problems. I would honestly pity you.

Here is another 'imaginary scenario' that I liked. If you have any reasonable alternatives that you'd like to add, please feel free to add them.

Well, possibly, if science does get to a point far enough, we may be able to transfer our thoughts/memories/etc. onto a huge computer database or something like that and forever live in a virtual environment (or maybe just much longer than the human body can last). Will this ever happen? I don't know. Is it possible? Maybe.

They have nothing to do with why so many people believe that the mind fails to survive death.

Thats precisely the problem.

Indeed, you could use the same argument form to challenge just about any belief anyone could have about anything. Why believe that there is even a brain inside your head when a god could have planted that false idea in your thoughts? Why believe anything at all when you can imagine alternative possibilities?

lol, why believe there is a brain in my head? Why believe anything at all? :bonk:

I have a question for you that hasn't even been addressed a single time yet in this thread, even though Ive made it a few times. You know why I think it hasn't been addressed? Because it makes your argument look weak, and you don't want to acknowledge it for that reason.

Is the cosmos infinite or not? If you think it is, what evidence do you have to believe it is? If you think it is not, what evidence do you have for believing it is not? Ive got some advice for you. If your going to try to find the answer to this question, I suggest you use your imagination .

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I just have faith that death is fundamental to the balance of nature. Particularly with a sustainable population of a particular species of animal where the birth rate ideally equals the death rate.

 

[PolyHedral]

Is the world infinite or not? If you think it is, what evidence do you have to believe it is? If you think it is not, what evidence do you have for believing it is not? Ive got some advice for you. If your going to try to find the answer to this question, I suggest you use your imagination .

The scientifically "canonical" answer is that the visible universe is finite, because the speed of light and the age of the universe are both finite.