faith is a useful tool

[emiliano]

Mbball 1297,
We are getting there boys and girls. You know that faith is a power and that is a gift from God that it has not been given to you yet, and that there are some that will never get this Grace, now it is possible that in spite of all that we have argued you still don’t get that there is still a chance for you in using the other gift that God gives to all, so here it goes. Free Will or free Choice, to choose God, our loving God created us with free will in order that we are able to choose the supreme good that is God. The Bible is the Christian’s guide, that’s where we find answers, we ask why is it that some don’t come to the light and the Bible answers Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hidden which shall not be revealed; nor became covered, but that it might come to the light.
There are and has been many that think in their heart that they can justify their sins or to cover them, as the Psalm says “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works” The fool preaches and campaign for acceptance of their corruptions, and even seek changes in the law, in culture and morality to continue in their corruptions. And that is what the Pascal’s wage is about, if there is God the fool is doomed, if there is no God and the fool was right the believer would have live a virtuous happy life because he had hope.
I am glad that you got what I said about logic, as I said “logic is a bugger of thing” it does not yield truth but people throw this term around a lot and as you can see that you can also play the game, I do that a lot, all I have to do is deny you access to a new premise to this man work and you done.

 

[emiliano]

I don't expect you to understand Emiliano. You cannot see what cannot be seen and that's okay. We have a very different view from you. We cannot understand you either because faith does not work for us. If you trust in who you trust and it gives you comfort and a reason for doing things right in this world, then it's good for you. I engage you in conversation mostly to try and understand this foreign concept of faith and why it has the ramifications it does with some people.

This is mostly the reason why people participate in these kind of religious debates, seeking understanding, now this concept of Faith is extensible treated in the Bible and a myriad of theological works, we all have our strategies and have done studies in the subjects that we involved ourselves in, what I got myself in, in this instance is in the sovereignty of God, that is absolute "He has mercy on who He want", and contrary to the belief of some Christian God is not running for office. He is God, so lowering the standards to obtain popularity or acceptance is not in His plan, as I said in today’s first post God in His desire that no one is lost has endowed us with free will so that we can freely choose Him,

I don't have a problem with beliefs that are inclusive about God, but I don't understand people who say that some people are never able to come to God because they have not been chosen.

I am glad that you don’t have a problem with that one and hope that you also consider that there are other gifts that God gives to all, because he desires that all repent and freely come to the saviour, the elect is drawn to the saviour eg; Moses, Joseph and Saul of Tarsus, other come at the invitation of the Saviour Mat 11:28 Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. I believe that rest is one of the principal pursuit of rational beings, But even in the days of the Lord’s ministry there were many that did not want to accept the invitation

 

[Magic Man]

Mbball 1297,
We are getting there boys and girls. You know that faith is a power and that is a gift from God that it has not been given to you yet, and that there are some that will never get this Grace,

Actually, I know none of that. I don't believe faith is power, I don't believe it's a gift from God, I don't believe it hasn't been given to me yet and I don't believe that there are some who will never get this grace.

now it is possible that in spite of all that we have argued you still don’t get that there is still a chance for you in using the other gift that God gives to all, so here it goes. Free Will or free Choice, to choose God, our loving God created us with free will in order that we are able to choose the supreme good that is God. The Bible is the Christian’s guide, that’s where we find answers, we ask why is it that some don’t come to the light and the Bible answers Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hidden which shall not be revealed; nor became covered, but that it might come to the light.
There are and has been many that think in their heart that they can justify their sins or to cover them, as the Psalm says “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works” The fool preaches and campaign for acceptance of their corruptions, and even seek changes in the law, in culture and morality to continue in their corruptions.

This is just nonsense, and not even new. Being an atheist has nothing to do with being a bad person. I guarantee you that even by Christian standards I'm a better person than most Christians, aside from believing in God. It is just a ridiculous accusation that has no merit to say that atheists "preach and campaign for acceptance of their corruptions, and even seek changes in the law, in culture and morality to continue in their corruptions". Atheists are not corrupt. They might have a few different views than you, but for the most part, our beliefs are the same.

Besides, this has nothing to do with faith or what we were debating.

And that is what the Pascal’s wage is about, if there is God the fool is doomed, if there is no God and the fool was right the believer would have live a virtuous happy life because he had hope.

Yes, that's what it's about, and that's why it's wrong. I know I should just quit now. You've made it abundantly clear that you refuse to even attempt to understand this. (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that you are capable of understanding and just choose not to, as opposed to you just not being capable of understanding.) I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

Yes, if you assume that there are only those two options, then that would be the case. The fact is, though, that there are many more options than that. The whole point of Pascal's Wager is to be safe. You're safe if you believe in the Christian God because you've got nothing to lose. However, you're not safe. It's entirely possible that the Christian God doesn't exist, and instead Zeus or some other god does, and that god which is the real one punishes believers of the Christian God. It's also entirely possible that Zeus (or whichever of the other gods is the real one) doesn't punish atheists because he doesn't mind people not believing in any god. Adding that into the mix means that I'm just as safe being an atheist as you are being a Christian. I understand that you don't think that Zeus exists or any other possible god does, but you also don't believe your God doesn't exist, and yet Pascal's Wager allows for that possibility.

I am glad that you got what I said about logic, as I said “logic is a bugger of thing” it does not yield truth but people throw this term around a lot and as you can see that you can also play the game, I do that a lot, all I have to do is deny you access to a new premise to this man work and you done.

Actually, logic does yield truth, as long as you're working with all of the correct information to begin with. Pascal's Wager is logical according to the incomplete information it provides. However, if you add in all of the other possibilities like I did, then the original conclusion becomes illogical. In that case, using logic gives you the truth. If you use all of the correct and relevant information and you use logic, then you're going to get the truth. If you use the correct and relevant information, and don't use logic, you can still get to the truth, but it's unlikely. It's like the difference between throwing a dart and guiding it through a tube or by hand. You could hit the bulls-eye either way, but the second way pretty much guarantees you hit it.

 

[Autodidact]

Mbball 1297,
We are getting there boys and girls. You know that faith is a power and that is a gift from God that it has not been given to you yet,

I know that? I don't know any such thing. In fact, I don't know that there is any such thing.

and that there are some that will never get this Grace, now it is possible that in spite of all that we have argued you still don’t get that there is still a chance for you in using the other gift that God gives to all, so here it goes.

First show us how you know any of the above to be true. If your answer is "faith," then what do you say to the millions of people who have faith that none of this is true? Something extra special about your faith that entitles it to special consideration?

Theists have two kinds of arguments: circular arguments and special pleading. Both are fallacies. This one is special pleading.

 

[emiliano]

Actually, I know none of that. I don't believe faith is power, I don't believe it's a gift from God, I don't believe it hasn't been given to me yet and I don't believe that there are some who will never get this grace.

And here is the correct information for you. “There is only one almighty God, I have no doubts“, you right though it is time to quit, logic say so, I can play the game for ever, maybe we should get onto Descartes ontological argument for more fun as this is even more controversial than Pascal, for atheist that is.

 

[darkendless]

And here is the correct information for you. “There is only one almighty God, I have no doubts“, you right though it is time to quit, logic say so, I can play the game for ever, maybe we should get onto Descartes ontological argument for more fun as this is even more controversial than Pascal, for atheist that is.

Correct in your eyes only Emiliano. For the rest of us, your information (or lack there of) is biased and rather dismally unconvincing. We're on opposite sides, the only difference being, we're not calling you stupid for your beliefs, only the way you present them. We would take you more seriously if you presented evidence that was comprehensive.

 

[rstrats]

mball1297,
re: "Pascal's Wager is logical according to the incomplete information it provides."

Actually it isn’t, because it is based on the erroneous notion that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

 

[Magic Man]

And here is the correct information for you. “There is only one almighty God, I have no doubts“, you right though it is time to quit, logic say so, I can play the game for ever, maybe we should get onto Descartes ontological argument for more fun as this is even more controversial than Pascal, for atheist that is.

And here is the correct information for you: There is no God at all. Of that I have no doubt.

Pascal's Wager is not controversial. It's just false.

I only wish that we were quitting because you finally understood the problem with Pascal's Wager. Sadly, it doesn't seem possible for you to do so. Oh well.

Although, I would love to hear what you have to say about Descartes. However, I'm starting another thread for that here, since it's probably off-topic here.

 

[Magic Man]

mball1297,
re: "Pascal's Wager is logical according to the incomplete information it provides."

Actually it isn’t, because it is based on the erroneous notion that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

As I said, it's based on incomplete information. If you start with the assumption that believing in God gets you into heaven and not believing in him gets you into hell, and you assume that you can choose to believe in him, then it's logical to assume that believing in God is the safer bet.

 

[Autodidact]

As I said, it's based on incomplete information. If you start with the assumption that believing in God gets you into heaven and not believing in him gets you into hell, and you assume that you can choose to believe in him, then it's logical to assume that believing in God is the safer bet.

Assuming that there is only one possible God, that is.

 

[Magic Man]

Assuming that there is only one possible God, that is.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Assuming only a very limited premise, including only one possible god.

 

[emiliano]

Correct in your eyes only Emiliano. For the rest of us, your information (or lack there of) is biased and rather dismally unconvincing. We're on opposite sides, the only difference being, we're not calling you stupid for your beliefs, only the way you present them. We would take you more seriously if you presented evidence that was comprehensive.

As I have told enough, I discover that it is impossible to present spiritual matter to atheist because their lack of faith long time ago, I don’t understand why you think that faith is not the power that it is when you can see the effect that it has on billions of people.

 

[darkendless]

As I have told enough, I discover that it is impossible to present spiritual matter to atheist because their lack of faith long time ago, I don’t understand why you think that faith is not the power that it is when you can see the effect that it has on billions of people.

I'm under the impression that more than two thirds of these people you mention were indoctrinated into such faith at such an age that they knew no better. Over time they just came to accept it as a reality whether they had an experience or not.

The reason i don't accept what you're saying is because im pretty sure you could be deprogrammed. You can present all the spiritual matter you want, it doesn't make it right. Its only useful to you because you've been programmed to accept it. To the rest of us its just speculation you mistranslate to mean something important and self-empowering. Really its not.

 

[iloveislam]

To have faith then one must also have proof- right?

Praise be to God; in Islam we have the clear proof.

However I wouldn't deny the fact that some Muslims are following Islam blindly. Heedless people occur in every community, so that should be of no surprise.

"Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?" [Al-Qur'an 47:24]

Click on my signature - which will take you to a website that deals with this subject.

In any case, one may disagree with this. Indeed everyone has their own choice to make and no body has the right to force upon them their beliefs.

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path." [Al-Qur'an 2:256]

 

[Copernicus]

As I have told enough, I discover that it is impossible to present spiritual matter to atheist because their lack of faith long time ago, I don’t understand why you think that faith is not the power that it is when you can see the effect that it has on billions of people.

Emiliano, it is not such a pretty sight.

 

[Magic Man]

As I have told enough, I discover that it is impossible to present spiritual matter to atheist because their lack of faith long time ago, I don’t understand why you think that faith is not the power that it is when you can see the effect that it has on billions of people.

Oh, it's definitely a power, but we don't give it much respect precisely because of its effect on those billions of people. I want to live my life with a clear head and use the right tools to get to what truth I can. That's why I choose not to use faith.

 

[emiliano]

Oh, it's definitely a power, but we don't give it much respect precisely because of its effect on those billions of people. I want to live my life with a clear head and use the right tools to get to what truth I can. That's why I choose not to use faith.

I am sure that there is more to it than that, but for now this is over for me in here, your resentment against religion steams out of other issues, rejections is hurtful, but religion is not compromising, it demand that you change.

 

[Magic Man]

I am sure that there is more to it than that, but for now this is over for me in here, your resentment against religion steams out of other issues, rejections is hurtful, but religion is not compromising, it demand that you change.

I have no resentment against religion in general. I have resentment against the religious people who feel the need to control everyone else's lives with laws against things like equal rights for homosexuals, but not for religion in general. I think faith is a cop-out and is only prized because it allows the faith-holder not to think about things they don't want to think about.

Maybe your religion is not compromising, but that's somewhat irrelevant here. Also, you becoming an atheist or following my code of ethics would demand that you change, too. Is that why you don't want to do it? (See how it works both ways?)

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Assuming only a very limited premise, including only one possible god.

Which is of course, a false premise. GIGO.

 

[Autodidact]

To have faith then one must also have proof- right?

Praise be to God; in Islam we have the clear proof.

Really? Lay it out for us. And try to avoid circular arguments and special pleading, O.K.?