faith is a useful tool

[Copernicus]

That would be m-ball's wager, I am very partial of Pascal's, skepticism (ever doubting) is not something that I would like to live by, it is a disturbance to the soul, and one cannot be happy in that state, so I am grateful to God that He had Mercy on me and gave me faith that allows me to ascent to spiritual truth/reality. I like Pascal’s wager because it give hopes and hope.........you know what fallows.

To you, it gives hope, but it gives you exactly the same kind of hope that Winston Smith achieved in Orwell's novel 1984. Having been put through hell on Earth, Smith learned to truly love Big Brother. The feeling gave him intense relief and pleasure, because he knew the consequences of not loving Big Brother. Those reading the book felt horror, of course, but they did not live in Winston Smith's reality.

Your scenario fails because you are skeptic, you aren't sure of this, thus there is no hope in your scenario,

But, as a skeptic, I look at your description of your state of mind, and I feel not unlike I did about the plight of poor Winston Smith.

 

[emiliano]

To you, it gives hope, but it gives you exactly the same kind of hope that Winston Smith achieved in Orwell's novel 1984. Having been put through hell on Earth, Smith learned to truly love Big Brother. The feeling gave him intense relief and pleasure, because he knew the consequences of not loving Big Brother. Those reading the book felt horror, of course, but they did not live in Winston Smith's reality.
But, as a skeptic, I look at your description of your state of mind, and I feel not unlike I did about the plight of poor Winston Smith.

That is exactly the reason what I believe that Faith is a power. What do you make of poor Winton, why didn’t they live his reality?

But, as a skeptic, I look at your description of your state of mind, and I feel not unlike I did about the plight of poor Winston Smith.

Why is it that billons of people follow faith and not Winston? It seems that Faith is what the Bible said that it is, that it does what the Bible say that it does, what can be the reason for the effects of these two book?

 

[emiliano]

You know this? How?

I have faith, I walk by faith, I know what it is, what it does for me, and who gave it to me, and I even why He gave it to me, I know plenty.

 

[emiliano]

You know something through faith? How does that work exactly? Because, y'know, I know through faith that you're dead wrong. We can't both be right; how do you tell which one of us is?

That’s what we are discussing, you and I will find that out soon, I will probably be earlier in this, if I am wrong, and there is no God and this life is all there is, what do I loose? If I am right, what happen to the Godless.

 

[emiliano]

Pascal does not make logical sense. His wager offers no good reason to believe, as you suggest.

The Discipline of Logic
Human life is full of decisions, including significant choices about what to believe. Although everyone prefers to believe what is true, we often disagree with each other about what that is in particular instances. It may be that some of our most fundamental convictions in life are acquired by haphazard means rather than by the use of reason, but we all recognize that our beliefs about ourselves and the world often hang together in important ways.
If I believe that whales are mammals and that all mammals are fish, then it would also make sense for me to believe that whales are fish. Even someone who (rightly!) disagreed with my understanding of biological taxonomy could appreciate the consistent, reasonable way in which I used my mistaken beliefs as the foundation upon which to establish a new one. On the other hand, if I decide to believe that Hamlet was Danish because I believe that Hamlet was a character in a play by Shaw and that some Danes are Shavian characters, then even someone who shares my belief in the result could point out that I haven't actually provided good reasons for accepting its truth.
In general, we can respect the directness of a path even when we don't accept the points at which it begins and ends. Thus, it is possible to distinguish correct reasoning from incorrect reasoning independently of our agreement on substantive matters. Logic is the discipline that studies this distinction—both by determining the conditions under which the truth of certain beliefs leads naturally to the truth of some other belief, and by drawing attention to the ways in which we may be led to believe something without respect for its truth. This provides no guarantee that we will always arrive at the truth, since the beliefs with which we begin are sometimes in error. But following the principles of correct reasoning does ensure that no additional mistakes creep in during the course of our progress.
Logical Arguments

 

[darkendless]

That’s what we are discussing, you and I will find that out soon, I will probably be earlier in this, if I am wrong, and there is no God and this life is all there is, what do I loose? If I am right, what happen to the Godless.

You lose half your productive life worrying about whether what you are doing at this exact moment is pleasing your god. Why live a half life just in case you're right?

 

[emiliano]

You lose half your productive life worrying about whether what you are doing at this exact moment is pleasing your god. Why live a half life just in case you're right?

It cost me nothing and I didn’t have to do any work at all, it is by Grace (unmerited favour) through Faith, ever since God gave me this great gift, it is instantaneous, so I don’t waste time at all, this is something that you cannot possibly understand and I don’t expect you to either. My life had been wonderful and I have great hope for what will come after the dirt nap, the problem with you is that you pretend to know how my life has been and do this in a negative way, as I said to Copernicus the things that I have abstain from has made a better person that I would have been if God did not lifted me out of the pit that I was in.
I said to him: why do you guys preach atheism? Would I be happier if I turn atheist? I don’t smoke (I gave it away), I don’t commit adultery ( I gave that away too) I don’t thief ( not even from my boss) I don’t get drunk (I gave that away as well) none of these benefit God, it’s all one way traffic, my way and I feel like worship my great God.
Copernicus wrote: Well, I have known cigarette smokers to have a similar conviction about the benefits of lighting up.
I answered:areyoucra: Who would like miss out on those benefits? The cancer, emphysema, gangrene, heart attack, strokes.
By the way I never got a list of the things that I suppose to have missed by not been atheist, since he has name you his spoke-man perhaps you can have a go at it.

 

[Magic Man]

That would be m-ball's wager, I am very partial of Pascal's, skepticism (ever doubting) is not something that I would like to live by, it is a disturbance to the soul, and one cannot be happy in that state, so I am grateful to God that He had Mercy on me and gave me faith that allows me to ascent to spiritual truth/reality. I like Pascal’s wager because it give hopes and hope.........you know what fallows.
Your scenario fails because you are skeptic, you aren't sure of this, thus there is no hope in your scenario,

No, that would be what's missing from Pascal's Wager. I understand that you don't want to be a skeptic, but that has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager, and it's a pretty naive way to go through life.

Pascal's Wager doesn't give hope, it gives a false dichotomy. Christianity and other religions which include a heaven give hope. It's just that there are so many different heavens that it becomes a crap shoot. The scenario doesn't fail because any of us are skeptics. It fails you because you don't want to see logic or reason. There is plenty of hope in other scenarios.

What you're missing is that we're not telling you that you shouldn't believe in God. We're telling you that the reasoning "If I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then you're in Hell for eternity" is wrong. There are many different scenarios that could happen that would put you in Hell and me in Heaven, if they exist. Atheism and Christianity are not the only two choices.

 

[Magic Man]

This make no sense “Pascal does not make logical sense. His wager offers no good reason to believe” the wager tells us that there is nothing to loose but everything to win and you say this? Logic is a bugger of a thing though, it does not lead you to truth, it just mean that you put your argument in the right order Pascal arrives to the conclusion that the gains of believing far outweigh the horrible consequences of rejecting God, and that is not a good reason to you.
Now am going to work so, later!

Yes, Pascal's Wager tells us that there is nothing to lose and everything to win, and it's wrong. Let's assume there is a heaven. Now, there are many different interpretations of it. It could be the Christian heaven, the Muslim heaven, or any number of other variations on it. Each one with a different way of getting in. That means that your way of getting in could be the wrong one. It could be that your believing in the wrong god excludes you from that heaven, while my skepticism or disbelief in the wrong god gets me into the real heaven. Then, it's I who "wins everything" as an atheist and you who "loses everything" as a Christian.

The point is that even if I believe in your God, it doesn't mean I'm safe. There are plenty of other possibilities that could happen, where even if I believed in your God, I'd be screwed. It gains me nothing to believe in your God, because it's not the only other option out there.

 

[Magic Man]

That’s what we are discussing, you and I will find that out soon, I will probably be earlier in this, if I am wrong, and there is no God and this life is all there is, what do I loose? If I am right, what happen to the Godless.

What happens if you're wrong, but there is a god? What happens if that god sends you to hell because you believed in the wrong god? What if the real god is Zeus? Then, you've lost quite a bit, in fact, your eternity. If, on the other hand, that god, Zeus, doesn't mind so much people not believing in him as long as they don't believe in another god, then I guess I gain everything. I'm really not sure how else to say this.

Your post about logic gives me hope, but I have a feeling you didn't actually read it, or even if you did, your faith didn't allow you to understand it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That’s what we are discussing, you and I will find that out soon, I will probably be earlier in this, if I am wrong, and there is no God and this life is all there is, what do I loose? If I am right, what happen to the Godless.

Does Pascal's Wager convey sincere belief? I doubt a god who required belief would think so.

 

[rstrats]

There is really little point in discussing whether or not the details of Pascal’s Wager can be legitimately applied. The Wager is invalid right from the start since it is based on the notion that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone does or doesn’t exist and of course that is impossible.

 

[darkendless]

It cost me nothing and I didn’t have to do any work at all, it is by Grace (unmerited favour) through Faith, ever since God gave me this great gift, it is instantaneous, so I don’t waste time at all, this is something that you cannot possibly understand and I don’t expect you to either. My life had been wonderful and I have great hope for what will come after the dirt nap, the problem with you is that you pretend to know how my life has been and do this in a negative way, as I said to Copernicus the things that I have abstain from has made a better person that I would have been if God did not lifted me out of the pit that I was in.
I said to him: why do you guys preach atheism? Would I be happier if I turn atheist? I don’t smoke (I gave it away), I don’t commit adultery ( I gave that away too) I don’t thief ( not even from my boss) I don’t get drunk (I gave that away as well) none of these benefit God, it’s all one way traffic, my way and I feel like worship my great God.
Copernicus wrote: Well, I have known cigarette smokers to have a similar conviction about the benefits of lighting up.
I answered:areyoucra: Who would like miss out on those benefits? The cancer, emphysema, gangrene, heart attack, strokes.
By the way I never got a list of the things that I suppose to have missed by not been atheist, since he has name you his spoke-man perhaps you can have a go at it.

I do understand exactly what you babble on about but that doesn't make it anymore appealing. You take me for an idiot Emiliano but i know exactly what you're saying, im not spiritually retarded, just not spiritually motivated. Especially with some of the stuff i see posted on this forum.

- Learning scripture could be better put to use learning math
- Praying could be put to studying something that can help humanity
- Going to church could be spent productively
- You believe in creationism, you're missing out on a great wealth of knowledge their by dismissing TOE.
- you waste a lot of time thinking about what God would think of a particular issue as if he would support your idealogy, but then claim we cannot understand him. Perhaps if you want to spend your time wisely as well as spiritually, come up with arguements free of circular reasoning?

 

[emiliano]

No, that would be what's missing from Pascal's Wager. I understand that you don't want to be a skeptic, but that has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager, and it's a pretty naive way to go through life.

Pascal's Wager doesn't give hope, it gives a false dichotomy. Christianity and other religions which include a heaven give hope. It's just that there are so many different heavens that it becomes a crap shoot. The scenario doesn't fail because any of us are skeptics. It fails you because you don't want to see logic or reason. There is plenty of hope in other scenarios. quote]

But the work of Pascal is that, you want to turned into a trichotomy, this particular work is for Christians, it’s about believing in the God of the Bible that is a spirit, that is what He declares in His word. That implies that there is also just one heaven, pagans have a plichotomy, and their scenario fails in Christian because we have been given this great tool/power that is Faith .Logic is the discipline that studies this distinction—both by determining the conditions under which the truth of certain beliefs leads naturally to the truth of some other belief, and by drawing attention to the ways in which we may be led to believe something without respect for its truth. Without faith (A gift of God) no one can ascent to spiritual knowledge.

 

[emiliano]

What you're missing is that we're not telling you that you shouldn't believe in God. We're telling you that the reasoning "If I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then you're in Hell for eternity" is wrong. There are many different scenarios that could happen that would put you in Hell and me in Heaven, if they exist. Atheism and Christianity are not the only two choices.

To us it is, hell is a place where we don’t want to end up because there is no God in it, the absence of this God that we get to know through faith ( divinely assisted) is a horrible thought, too horrible to even contemplate.

 

[emiliano]

Darkenless ,

I do understand exactly what you babble on about but that doesn't make it anymore appealing. You take me for an idiot Emiliano but i know exactly what you're saying, im not spiritually retarded, just not spiritually motivated. Especially with some of the stuff i see posted on this forum.

Well when I read your posts I form an opinion that is similar to yours about the other folks contributions, I have told you enough that you don’t have what spirituality requires to ascent to this knowledge and that this tool is given to some in the most sovereignly way, God has Mercy on who He wants, without faith you cannot be anything but what you are.

- Learning scripture could be better put to use learning math

Great mathematician are theist as well, if you live a virtuous life, if you abstain from giving in to your flesh’s lusts, you can have more than enough time to pursuit theology and several other interest.

-

Praying could be put to studying something that can help humanity

Nothing helps humanity more than interceding prayers.
[/quote]
We draw great benefits from meeting with like minded people, we encourage One another, we help one another, we counsel one another, we love one another with agape love, it produces plenty, a united family a stable marriage etc.

- You believe in creationism, you're missing out on a great wealth of knowledge their by dismissing TOE.

In the area of my work TOE is pretty useless/unproductive whatever TOE means.

- you waste a lot of time thinking about what God would think of a particular issue as if he would support your idealogy, but then claim we cannot understand him. Perhaps if you want to spend your time wisely as well as spiritually, come up with arguements free of circular reasoning?

What I have stated here several times is that without faith you cannot ascent to spiritual knowledge and I or anybody cannot help you, you will stay in the state that you are in till God in His Mercy gives you the gift, I even ignored your trolls, I know that you will not come to faith till God has Mercy on you and, if He does not, it would be because you are not of His family.

 

[Magic Man]

But the work of Pascal is that, you want to turned into a trichotomy, this particular work is for Christians, it’s about believing in the God of the Bible that is a spirit, that is what He declares in His word. That implies that there is also just one heaven, pagans have a plichotomy, and their scenario fails in Christian because we have been given this great tool/power that is Faith .Logic is the discipline that studies this distinction—both by determining the conditions under which the truth of certain beliefs leads naturally to the truth of some other belief, and by drawing attention to the ways in which we may be led to believe something without respect for its truth. Without faith (A gift of God) no one can ascent to spiritual knowledge.

I want it turned into more than a dichotomy because that's what it is. It's like saying "Well, you can either work at a law firm or you can work at a convenience store". Those are not the only two options, so the whole premise is false. Yes, Pascal's wager is for Christians, but generally it's good not to take something to be true based on false information, although you've made it abundantly clear that you not only do that, but you enjoy it.

I have no idea where you're going with the "pagan plichotomy". That's nothing more than nonsense.

 

[Magic Man]

To us it is, hell is a place where we don’t want to end up because there is no God in it, the absence of this God that we get to know through faith ( divinely assisted) is a horrible thought, too horrible to even contemplate.

It's a horrible thought because you haven't bothered to contemplate any other way. A world without your God is quite wonderful and marvelous, actually. Besides, this doesn't really respond to my post. For these purposes, heaven is a place where you are perfectly happy eternally, and hell is a place where you are perfectly tortured eternally. They have nothing to do with a certain god concept here.

 

[emiliano]

I want it turned into more than a dichotomy because that's what it is. It's like saying "Well, you can either work at a law firm or you can work at a convenience store". Those are not the only two options, so the whole premise is false. Yes, Pascal's wager is for Christians, but generally it's good not to take something to be true based on false information, although you've made it abundantly clear that you not only do that, but you enjoy it.

I have no idea where you're going with the "pagan plichotomy". That's nothing more than nonsense.

It is that you said that there could other gods and that they would have other heavens, imagine the pagans that have a multitude of god, they have a god for every occasion (I tried to find a word for it, and meant to type Polichotomy), that does not interest me at all, I believe in one almighty God that revealed Himself to me and inspired a manual for righteous living and that is Merciful to me when I fall short of His directives and repent, that is all a need, I rather recognise my fault and ask forgiveness, rather than seek a god that tolerate my error, I don’t want to justify my short falls I rather seek strength from God to stay on course.

 

[emiliano]

It's a horrible thought because you haven't bothered to contemplate any other way. A world without your God is quite wonderful and marvelous, actually. Besides, this doesn't really respond to my post. For these purposes, heaven is a place where you are perfectly happy eternally, and hell is a place where you are perfectly tortured eternally. They have nothing to do with a certain god concept here.

It is the concept of opposites, if havens is a place of eternal bliss, hell is the opposite, heaven is a place where we find what we pursuit all of our earthly life, namely peace, rest and happiness, hell is the opposite, thus there is none of that in hell. Because we possess the gift of faith we are absolutely sure of the existence of our God and His kingdom, we live a happy life in hope that we are on our way. So we live a happy earthly life here that we know that is nothing but a shadow of the bliss that await us.