faith is a useful tool

[emiliano]

It appears that God is conditional. He fits whatever situation you theists put him in. why is it we can't imagine God yet so many try to give him human morals and characteristics? Such as saying "God wouldn't like this." Does faith allow you to pick and choose whether God would act in this situation or not? I ask this because on one hand through prayer he apparently helps many people, but why does he not help starving people? I asked this is another thread and someone said we have to do it ourselves. But then why pray? If God doesn't help whats the point?

As I have told you so many times, you cannot ascent to the believe in spiritual beings unaided by God, unless God gives you the gift of faith you will remain godless and reprobate, a good example is conversion to Christianity every convert is the result of someone’s prayers that moves God to mercy, one thing that is inseparable from God is His sovereignty He gives faith to save who He wants, that is why not everybody is of His flock. Not all are His children Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
We pray for guidance, to find what His will is, what we must do, here is one example: Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.
Become a doctor, or a religious minister.
And this one, maybe they meant this: Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Pray to God to give you the means to do these things, when God’s provides, He always does it in abundance, ask yourself why, and act accordingly “visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and keep oneself unspotted from the world”

 

[emiliano]

I like to refer to this tactic as the "ineffability defense". It is a fallback position when all else fails. God is perfectly understandable up to the point where he fails to explain our condition and our situation. At that time, he becomes "ineffable"-- impervious to human understanding. God is as understandable as he needs to be to sustain belief, but no more so.

None of this is applicable to those that God in His mercy gives the gift of faith. It Got to do with faith: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hope is another gift of God that allows the believer to have happiness, peace and rest, that are the major pursuits of mankind. It provides us with enough evidences to trust God a spirit. Through faith, God makes Himself present to human beings, faith is bound up with hope and love. These three virtues or powers are divine actions, merciful gifts that have their origin in eternity and their effect in time. This is how humans are transformed and achieve an initial union with God while continuing to live in and be limited by the world and their existance in the flesh.

 

[Magic Man]

None of this is applicable to those that God in His mercy gives the gift of faith. It Got to do with faith: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hope is another gift of God that allows the believer to have happiness, peace and rest, that are the major pursuits of mankind. It provides us with enough evidences to trust God a spirit. Through faith, God makes Himself present to human beings, faith is bound up with hope and love. These three virtues or powers are divine actions, merciful gifts that have their origin in eternity and their effect in time. This is how humans are transformed and achieve an initial union with God while continuing to live in and be limited by the world and their existance in the flesh.

And which part of this explains why you claim that God is not understandable to humans, and yet you believe that you understand him, at least to a degree?

 

[emiliano]

And which part of this explains why you claim that God is not understandable to humans, and yet you believe that you understand him, at least to a degree?

As I said to Darkenless “As I have told you so many times, you cannot ascent to the believe in spiritual beings unaided by God, unless God gives you the gift of faith you will remain godless and reprobate” folks in this discussion are debating “faith is a useful tool” my position is that it is the ultimate perfect tool to explain spiritual matters to those that have received the gift of Faith from God, those that have not are the ones that remain reprobates, so in a way I have something that they don’t have, faith allows me to understand thing that they don’t about God. If God in His great Mercy decides to give this power to them, then they will understand as much as they need to understand, most of atheist people seem to believe that they are so important to God’s plan that He must perform signs and wonder to make them believe in Him, in this days of scientific advancement, what we know so far of the universe that God created, they want more? Does an *** believe that there is a God? Does it know that there is a universe? Does it know that there other countries with creatures just like it? Does it believe that there is a spiritual realm? Why is it so?
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;
God in His absolute sovereignty can have mercy on who He wills, the fact that He has mercy on me does not means that I can convince you to believe in the same way that I do, it is not about me, but is all about God that gives gifts to humans and saves them.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to each?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he who plants anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

 

[Mister Emu]

Faith has the prominent effect of making people stop asking questions about their surroundings

Too general... faith does not such thing... Some of the first 'modern' scientists believed that scientific study would work because God created the universe and God is a God of order, so there would be laws to how nature works...

To use one of Christopher Hitchens challenges, provide one instance of a moral act performed by a religious person that could not have been performed by someone non-religious, Mr. Hitchens claims that none of the millions of people he's issued that challenge to has ever come up with something. On the other hand, name an evil act that has been comitted in the name of religion, pretty much anyone can come up with a handful of examples without even trying.

Those are two different questions... name an act of evil done in the name of religion that couldn't/hasn't be/been done for secular reasons... or name an act of good done in the name of religion...

What really drives religious faith is that it is a tremendously useful thing to have. It gives us a feeling of power over our circumstances, just as a superstition might give someone a feeling of avoiding danger or explaining a bad experience.

Really, I don't see it that way... I have little control over circumstances, I'd imagine I believe less so than many/most atheists, I have as much control over circumstances through prayer as a convict does over his sentence by asking for mercy from the judge...

believing in something that has no supporting evidence, something that is completely conjecture. Like God for instance.

What about those who do have supporting evidence?

Through the first couple of pages, will respond to more when I can...

 

[challupa]

What about those who do have supporting evidence?

Are you saying you have supporting evidence there is a God?

 

[Copernicus]

Emiliano, faith comes at a cost. You are working hard at your heavenly reward, and I wish you well in your journey to that end. I suppose that you feel spreading belief will please your deity. Since I lack faith in the possibility of an afterlife, let alone heavenly paradise, I feel that the cost is just too high. However, we can both enjoy our short lives while we have them. Since mine is likely to be a lot shorter than yours, I feel under some pressure to enjoy it more.

 

[Mister Emu]

Are you saying you have supporting evidence there is a God?

Indeed...

 

[Copernicus]

What really drives religious faith is that it is a tremendously useful thing to have. It gives us a feeling of power over our circumstances, just as a superstition might give someone a feeling of avoiding danger or explaining a bad experience.

Really, I don't see it that way... I have little control over circumstances, I'd imagine I believe less so than many/most atheists, I have as much control over circumstances through prayer as a convict does over his sentence by asking for mercy from the judge...

Well, that's what I meant. Metaphorically speaking, you aren't exactly an inmate in Bush's Guantanamo. You have access to a judge whom you can appeal to for mercy. And, being a Christian, you have some hope of gaining enough favor with the judge to be granted an immortal existence in rather happy circumstances. So I would say that your faith does give you a feeling of power that atheists such as myself, alas, cannot share. And, although you may not believe it, there are plenty of Christians who think that God will intervene on their behalf if they show sufficient love and devotion to him. It is almost like marrying into a very rich family.

 

[Mister Emu]

And, being a Christian, you have some hope of gaining enough favor with the judge to be granted an immortal existence in rather happy circumstances.

I have no hope that I could ever gain enough favor to achieve heaven...

And, although you may not believe it, there are plenty of Christians who think that God will intervene on their behalf if they show sufficient love and devotion to him.

Oh I am sure, I am just saying not all see it that way... my perspective is that I would have far more control in an existance without God...

 

[challupa]

Indeed...

So what do you mean? What kind of evidence?

Also, from your post to Copernicus you sound as though you believe your life is determined and that you do not have free will, is that true or am I misunderstanding you.

"my perspective is that I would have far more control in an existance without God... "

 

[Mister Emu]

So what do you mean? What kind of evidence?

Experiential...

Also, from your post to Copernicus you sound as though you believe your life is determined and that you do not have free will, is that true or am I misunderstanding you.

"my perspective is that I would have far more control in an existance without God... "

I do not believe those things...

 

[challupa]

Experiential...


I do not believe those things...

Does that mean you have had experiences yourself that have given you "knowing" there is a God? That's really invaluable if that's what you mean.

If you don't believe those things, then why do you believe you would have more say in your life if there was no god or if you didn't believe in god?

 

[Mister Emu]

Does that mean you have had experiences yourself that have given you "knowing" there is a God?

Yes...

That's really invaluable if that's what you mean.

Did you mean to use invaluable? "beyond calculable or appraisable value; of inestimable worth; priceless" (Dictionary.com) I agree with the usage as it pertains to myself, the knowledge of God is of inestimable worth

If you don't believe those things, then why do you believe you would have more say in your life if there was no god or if you didn't believe in god?

Because on one hand, I have submitted to God(most of the time ) and do my best to follow His will... and on the other things I could choose to do might not work out the way I meant them to because God decided for them not to

 

[challupa]

Did you mean to use invaluable? "beyond calculable or appraisable value; of inestimable worth; priceless" (Dictionary.com) I agree with the usage as it pertains to myself, the knowledge of God is of inestimable worth


Because on one hand, I have submitted to God(most of the time ) and do my best to follow His will... and on the other things I could choose to do might not work out the way I meant them to because God decided for them not to

Yes invaluable was the word I meant to use. I think for someone to have had personal knowledge of their God would be "priceless". I take it by your yes and no answers though that you are not willing to share what those experience might have been, so I'll not ask further.

I would guess from this comment that you belief that God has the ability to intervene in our lives when he so pleases. I guess in that case I understand why you would say if there was no god you would have more freedom to do as you pleased. Thank you for your explanations.

 

[Mister Emu]

I take it by your yes and no answers though that you are not willing to share what those experience might have been, so I'll not ask further.

It depends, I'm not unwilling, but I also don't throw my experiences around... I take it you would like to hear what they are?

I would guess from this comment that you belief that God has the ability to intervene in our lives when he so pleases. I guess in that case I understand why you would say if there was no god you would have more freedom to do as you pleased. Thank you for your explanations.

Pretty much

 

[challupa]

It depends, I'm not unwilling, but I also don't throw my experiences around... I take it you would like to hear what they are?


Pretty much

If you're comfortable with that, yes. I have no religion and I don't like many things about them, but I do feel there is something that I connect with that makes me feel very contented and loved. What that is I haven't put a name to.

 

[Mister Emu]

Indeed I am...

Some of it is hard to put into words, like the feeling I get in Church and when I pray, it is the overwhelming sense of being loved, just pure unadultered love, from a seperate presence, not me and not anyone there... That is the only way I know how to express what I feel, and it seems so inadequate to what really happens... Mass often brings me to tears, the feeling is so strong...

That is among other small things that point to something out there that exists when people are gathered for Church and in prayer...

The main spiritual experience I've had though is an auditory phenomenon, I believe I've heard the voice of the Lord... It was the vocal embodiment of the love/loving presence I feel at times... This is what leads me to feel I have knowledge that the being I call God exists...

From my experiences, a being exists, He loves me... He is, at the very least, multi-present(I believe omni)... I call this being God, and worship Him in the manner that the Bible and Tradition have brought down to me

 

[challupa]

Indeed I am...

Some of it is hard to put into words, like the feeling I get in Church and when I pray, it is the overwhelming sense of being loved, just pure unadultered love, from a seperate presence, not me and not anyone there... That is the only way I know how to express what I feel, and it seems so inadequate to what really happens... Mass often brings me to tears, the feeling is so strong...

That is among other small things that point to something out there that exists when people are gathered for Church and in prayer...

The main spiritual experience I've had though is an auditory phenomenon, I believe I've heard the voice of the Lord... It was the vocal embodiment of the love/loving presence I feel at times... This is what leads me to feel I have knowledge that the being I call God exists...

From my experiences, a being exists, He loves me... He is, at the very least, multi-present(I believe omni)... I call this being God, and worship Him in the manner that the Bible and Tradition have brought down to me

Wow those must have been quite (now I am at a loss for the right word) so I will use impressionable experiences. To hear would be hard to deny. I understand the feeling you talk about as I experience it when in meditation. It is very hard to explain these experiences but I do find them very comforting. It's interesting because I was never looking for comfort, I learned meditation to help me relax because of chronic pain. The experience somewhat surprised me because I had been an athiest most of my adult life. The experiences has softened that stance to where I now am agnostic. I still can't go the traditional route though. That part just doesn't work for me. I think we should do whatever we find we're comfortable with and you sound as though you are comfortable in the church setting. I had too many bad experiences with religion which is why I became an athiest to begin with. So now it really isn't an option for me. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Mister Emu]

Thank you for sharing.

Welcome