faith is a useful tool

[darkendless]

As I have told you so many times, you cannot ascent to the believe in spiritual beings unaided by God, unless God gives you the gift of faith you will remain godless and reprobate, a good example is conversion to Christianity every convert is the result of someone’s prayers that moves God to mercy, one thing that is inseparable from God is His sovereignty He gives faith to save who He wants, that is why not everybody is of His flock. Not all are His children Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
We pray for guidance, to find what His will is, what we must do, here is one example: Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.
Become a doctor, or a religious minister.
And this one, maybe they meant this: Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Pray to God to give you the means to do these things, when God’s provides, He always does it in abundance, ask yourself why, and act accordingly “visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and keep oneself unspotted from the world”

wow that was a lengthy post of nothing. How is posting scripture useful Emiliano? What does scripture prove? Nothing. Your faith is all well and good but thats all it is. You're thinking wishfully, but thats about all. Thats why i am so sceptical of your faith, because its all based on wishful thinking.

 

[emiliano]

Emiliano, faith comes at a cost. You are working hard at your heavenly reward, and I wish you well in your journey to that end. I suppose that you feel spreading belief will please your deity. Since I lack faith in the possibility of an afterlife, let alone heavenly paradise, I feel that the cost is just too high. However, we can both enjoy our short lives while we have them. Since mine is likely to be a lot shorter than yours, I feel under some pressure to enjoy it more.

Now you blew it. Faith is a gift, it comes from God’s Grace and Grace is unmerited favour, there is nothing we can give God because God is perfect, lacking nothing, needing nothing, where do you get the idea that I need to convert other people to earn my ticket trough the pearly gates from? I am merely sharing what I know about faith, I left the discussion when I thought that I said all that I could, then Darkenless mention my name, it seem to me that again I have reach the end of my participation, faith=hope and hope is happiness, the certainty that this life that I live, that is has been very good is nothing but a shadow of the bliss to come, and it cost me nothing.
Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."
Hope is a belief in the possibility of happiness.

As Christians that hope is placed in specific truths revealed to us by God through our Church, having recognized that no earthly things can satisfy that innate desire for beatitude.

 

[blackout]

For me "faith" is a WAY in which I DO a thing.

It is an active word.

 

[Copernicus]

Now you blew it. Faith is a gift, it comes from God’s Grace and Grace is unmerited favour, there is nothing we can give God because God is perfect, lacking nothing, needing nothing, where do you get the idea that I need to convert other people to earn my ticket trough the pearly gates from?

I didn't say that your evangelism would guarantee you anything. Not everyone has to convert non-Christians in order to merit salvation, but it is generally felt that God is capable of being pleased by human worship. You and most Christians on a mission to spread the faith clearly do believe that God desires people to have faith and that they are doing God's work. It is ironic that so many of those who worship a god find it so difficult to admit that there is a reciprocal relationship here where both parties get something in return. God gets the love, devotion, loyalty and worship of humans, who are grateful in return for the gift of everlasting salvation. Faith is part of a bargain just as surely as Abraham's original promise to worship Yahweh to the exclusion of all the other gods was a legal covenant with a deity in which each side got something in return. Has this thought never crossed your mind?

...faith=hope and hope is happiness, the certainty that this life that I live, that is has been very good is nothing but a shadow of the bliss to come, and it cost me nothing.

It has not been my experience that Christians believe their faith costs them nothing. Have you never done anything to inconvenience yourself in order to pursue your faith? I really doubt that. It is what you get in return for your faith that compensates you for the inconveniences and sacrifices. Since I have no faith to give, I don't get any compensation. So much the worse for me, if you are right. I just don't believe that you are right.

...Hope is a belief in the possibility of happiness.

Agreed, but I have had to find happiness without the belief that I will survive my inevitable death and live in paradise. That makes life all the more worth living. If I believed the way you do, then I admit that I would have a lot more to look forward to, but nothing you have said leads me to believe the way you do. I am not going to bribe myself with false promises in order to mitigate the sacrifices that religious faith requires. The carrot (heaven) and the stick (hell) don't work for me.

As Christians that hope is placed in specific truths revealed to us by God through our Church, having recognized that no earthly things can satisfy that innate desire for beatitude.

Well, I have known cigarette smokers to have a similar conviction about the benefits of lighting up. The nicotine satisfies a strong craving that they have for something more than non-smokers can get, but living to satisfy that craving does not motivate me to take up smoking.

 

[Magic Man]

As I said to Darkenless “As I have told you so many times, you cannot ascent to the believe in spiritual beings unaided by God, unless God gives you the gift of faith you will remain godless and reprobate” folks in this discussion are debating “faith is a useful tool” my position is that it is the ultimate perfect tool to explain spiritual matters to those that have received the gift of Faith from God, those that have not are the ones that remain reprobates, so in a way I have something that they don’t have, faith allows me to understand thing that they don’t about God. If God in His great Mercy decides to give this power to them, then they will understand as much as they need to understand, most of atheist people seem to believe that they are so important to God’s plan that He must perform signs and wonder to make them believe in Him, in this days of scientific advancement, what we know so far of the universe that God created, they want more? Does an *** believe that there is a God? Does it know that there is a universe? Does it know that there other countries with creatures just like it? Does it believe that there is a spiritual realm? Why is it so?
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;
God in His absolute sovereignty can have mercy on who He wills, the fact that He has mercy on me does not means that I can convince you to believe in the same way that I do, it is not about me, but is all about God that gives gifts to humans and saves them.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to each?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he who plants anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

In other words, it's not impossible to understand God, you just need faith. Therefore, your claim that God is ineffable or unknowable was wrong.

 

[emiliano]

quote=Copernicus;1426907]

I didn't say that your evangelism would guarantee you anything. Not everyone has to convert non-Christians in order to merit salvation, but it is generally felt that God is capable of being pleased by human worship.

I was wrong there is still things that I could discuss in this thread, I am glad that the you realised the diversity that exist in Christianity (I did that long time ego) we call it “our call/ministry” I believe that God have a purpose for my life, I remember the filthy pit from which He took out of, I thought to myself the greatest conceivable being that exist, the creator of this universe that science is discovering, had Mercy on me, there have to be purpose for all of this, I sought and found an answer that is seem to be to annoy the hell out of the preachers of the non existence of God, and I am afraid that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

You and most Christians on a mission to spread the faith clearly do believe that God desires people to have faith and that they are doing God's work.

That the problem you people preaching to the world what we believe, most of the time they create straw dogs and set on attacking them. In case you have put me (it seems that you have) in the same bag. I have a couple of threads in this forum that may let you know what is my position “Be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you” and Do you have a call to a ministry?

It is ironic that so many of those who worship a god find it so difficult to admit that there is a reciprocal relationship here where both parties get something in return. God gets the love, devotion, loyalty and worship of humans, who are grateful in return for the gift of everlasting salvation. Faith is part of a bargain just as surely as Abraham's original promise to worship Yahweh to the exclusion of all the other gods was a legal covenant with a deity in which each side got something in return. Has this thought never crossed your mind?

There you go, anybody that is elect to see the glory of God, His greatness, His power, His love can’t but stand in awe, tremble and worship. Good examples of these are Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Saul of Tarsus.

It has not been my experience that Christians believe their faith costs them nothing. Have you never done anything to inconvenience yourself in order to pursue your faith? I really doubt that. It is what you get in return for your faith that compensates you for the inconveniences and sacrifices. Since I have no faith to give, I don't get any compensation. So much the worse for me, if you are right. I just don't believe that you are right.

Well for starter what you get from receiving the gift of Faith the ability ti ascent to spiritual truth.

Agreed, but I have had to find happiness without the belief that I will survive my inevitable death and live in paradise.

Then you stay in that condition, why do you guys preach atheism? Would I be happier if I turn atheist? I don’t smoke (I gave it away), I don’t commit adultery ( I gave that away too) I don’t thief ( not even from my boss) I don’t get drunk (I gave that away as well) none of these benefit God, it’s all one way traffic, my way and I feel like worship my great God.

That makes life all the more worth living.

What does?

If I believed the way you do, then I admit that I would have a lot more to look forward to, but nothing you have said leads me to believe the way you do. I am not going to bribe myself with false promises in order to mitigate the sacrifices that religious faith requires. The carrot (heaven) and the stick (hell) don't work for me.

But you will find out! What would happen if I am wrong? What will happen if you are wrong?

Well, I have known cigarette smokers to have a similar conviction about the benefits of lighting up.

Who would like miss and those benefits? The cancer, emphysema, gangrene, heart attack, strokes.

 

[Magic Man]

But you will find out! What would happen if I am wrong? What will happen if you are wrong?

What would happen if we were all three wrong? What if the real God (not the Christian one) is actually spiteful of anyone who worships a different god than him, and sends them to Hell? What if that same real God has no problem with people who don't worship any god and lets them into his heaven? Then, we atheists are better off than you.

It's called Pascal's Wager, emiliano, and it doesn't work.

 

[emiliano]

What would happen if we were all three wrong? What if the real God (not the Christian one) is actually spiteful of anyone who worships a different god than him, and sends them to Hell? What if that same real God has no problem with people who don't worship any god and lets them into his heaven? Then, we atheists are better off than you.

It's called Pascal's Wager, emiliano, and it doesn't work.

I see, you want to introduce another scenario to the Wager, but the positions here are 1) There is a God of the Bible and 2) there is no God.
What if the real God (not the Christian one) is actually spiteful of anyone who worships a different god than him, and sends them to Hell?
Impossible, there is not other god, but the God of the Bible, how do I know this? Through Faith a gift that He gave me, I cannot be deceived or be fill with doubts. Faith is really useful tool to fence oneself from the disturbances of doubt and unbelief that are the causes of perdition.
What if that same real God has no problem with people who don't worship any god and lets them into his heaven?
Improbable, God reveals Himself to those in which he has Mercy on to save them from the path that leads to perdition and put them on the path that leads to His kingdom, trough Faith I know that there is only one true God, the others are not God at all, but demos and evil spirit, and I don’t want to spend one second in their kingdom.

 

[Magic Man]

I see, you want to introduce another scenario to the Wager, but the positions here are 1) There is a God of the Bible and 2) there is no God.

Yes, those are the positions here. However, that doesn't mean they are the only two possibilities.

What if the real God (not the Christian one) is actually spiteful of anyone who worships a different god than him, and sends them to Hell?
Impossible, there is not other god, but the God of the Bible, how do I know this? Through Faith a gift that He gave me, I cannot be deceived or be fill with doubts.

It's not impossible. There are plenty of other people who feel that their faith tells them their own version of God exists, not yours. At least one of you has to be wrong. It's entirely possible it's you.

Faith is really useful tool to fence oneself from the disturbances of doubt and unbelief that are the causes of perdition.

I just had to quote this separately. I disagree. I think what you're talking about is blind faith or willful ignorance. You're right, they are good ways to fend off doubt and unbelief. However, you should not have to defend yourself against those things. If your faith is that fragile that it can't stand up to some questioning, then how good is it? In that case, you're really just avoiding change because it frightens you.

What if that same real God has no problem with people who don't worship any god and lets them into his heaven?
Improbable, God reveals Himself to those in which he has Mercy on to save them from the path that leads to perdition and put them on the path that leads to His kingdom, trough Faith I know that there is only one true God, the others are not God at all, but demos and evil spirit, and I don’t want to spend one second in their kingdom.

I understand that that's what you think, but that doesn't make it reality. The point is that, for all you know, the god that exists could be the way I described. Of course, you don't think that's the way it is, but then you wouldn't be Christian if you did. However, that doesn't rule it out as a possibility in your Pascal's Wager.

 

[challupa]

Yes, those are the positions here. However, that doesn't mean they are the only two possibilities.



It's not impossible. There are plenty of other people who feel that their faith tells them their own version of God exists, not yours. At least one of you has to be wrong. It's entirely possible it's you.



I just had to quote this separately. I disagree. I think what you're talking about is blind faith or willful ignorance. You're right, they are good ways to fend off doubt and unbelief. However, you should not have to defend yourself against those things. If you're faith is that fragile that it can't stand up to some questioning, then how good is it? In that case, you're really just avoiding change because it frightens you.



I understand that that's what you think, but that doesn't make it reality. The point is that, for all you know, the god that exists could be the way I described. Of course, you don't think that's the way it is, but then you wouldn't be Christian if you did. However, that doesn't rule it out as a possibility in your Pascal's Wager.

Thanks for posting this, I was thinking the very same thing, just didn't know how to word it.

 

[Copernicus]

And there is always the "Reverse Pascal's Wager" in which God put us in a world where we needed skepticism to survive, and he designed it to make belief in his existence seem unlikely. Under this scenario, he really values skepticism over faith, and our earthly existence is a test to weed out those who are too gullible to merit an eternally blissful afterlife. Atheists go to heaven, and Christians go to hell. What a surprise they are in for after they die.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Generalizing is never a good thing.

...uhhhhh.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I agree. Faith is a useful tool for examining difficult questions.

How does this tool work? What process do you go through and for what kind of questions is it useful?

 

[Autodidact]

I see, you want to introduce another scenario to the Wager, but the positions here are 1) There is a God of the Bible and 2) there is no God.
What if the real God (not the Christian one) is actually spiteful of anyone who worships a different god than him, and sends them to Hell?
Impossible, there is not other god, but the God of the Bible, how do I know this? Through Faith a gift that He gave me, I cannot be deceived or be fill with doubts.

Can you say, "circular reasoning"?

Faith is really useful tool to fence oneself from the disturbances of doubt and unbelief that are the causes of perdition.

bolded for emphasis.

What if that same real God has no problem with people who don't worship any god and lets them into his heaven?

Improbable, God reveals Himself to those in which he has Mercy on to save them from the path that leads to perdition and put them on the path that leads to His kingdom, trough Faith I know that there is only one true God, the others are not God at all, but demos and evil spirit, and I don’t want to spend one second in their kingdom.

You know something through faith? How does that work exactly? Because, y'know, I know through faith that you're dead wrong. We can't both be right; how do you tell which one of us is?

 

[Autodidact]

I am merely sharing what I know about faith,

You know this? How?

 

[emiliano]

Yes, those are the positions here. However, that doesn't mean they are the only two possibilities.

It's not impossible. There are plenty of other people who feel that their faith tells them their own version of God exists, not yours. At least one of you has to be wrong. It's entirely possible it's you.

I just had to quote this separately. I disagree. I think what you're talking about is blind faith or willful ignorance. You're right, they are good ways to fend off doubt and unbelief. However, you should not have to defend yourself against those things. If you're faith is that fragile that it can't stand up to some questioning, then how good is it? In that case, you're really just avoiding change because it frightens you.

I understand that that's what you think, but that doesn't make it reality. The point is that, for all you know, the god that exists could be the way I described. Of course, you don't think that's the way it is, but then you wouldn't be Christian if you did. However, that doesn't rule it out as a possibility in your Pascal's Wager.

That the beauty of it I can and I do, there is only one God, the almighty that created the universe and through faith I am aware of His actions in my life, I have had a good life and have hope for a better one when this one is over. That is my reality and it comes from what I just said, what I see because what God gave me, faith is not only useful but the supreme good, so Pascal makes logical sense. even if I am not right I would have lived a happy life, a moral life and developed virtues that benefited others, the right thing to do, a win, win situation.

 

[Magic Man]

Thanks for posting this, I was thinking the very same thing, just didn't know how to word it.

Glad I could help.

 

[Magic Man]

That the beauty of it I can and I do, there is only one God, the almighty that created the universe and through faith I am aware of His actions in my life, I have had a good life and have hope for a better one when this one is over. That is my reality and it comes from what I just said, what I see because what God gave me, faith is not only useful but the supreme good, so Pascal makes logical sense. even if I am not right I would have lived a happy life, a moral life and developed virtues that benefited others, the right thing to do, a win, win situation.

And even if I am not right, I have lived a happy and moral life and developped virtues that benefitted others, the right thing to do. Pascal does not make logical sense. His wager offers no good reason to believe, as you suggest. I'm glad you have faith and are happy, but you need to at least understand logic and reason, too.

 

[emiliano]

And there is always the "Reverse Pascal's Wager" in which God put us in a world where we needed skepticism to survive, and he designed it to make belief in his existence seem unlikely. Under this scenario, he really values skepticism over faith, and our earthly existence is a test to weed out those who are too gullible to merit an eternally blissful afterlife. Atheists go to heaven, and Christians go to hell. What a surprise they are in for after they die.

That would be m-ball's wager, I am very partial of Pascal's, skepticism (ever doubting) is not something that I would like to live by, it is a disturbance to the soul, and one cannot be happy in that state, so I am grateful to God that He had Mercy on me and gave me faith that allows me to ascent to spiritual truth/reality. I like Pascal’s wager because it give hopes and hope.........you know what fallows.
Your scenario fails because you are skeptic, you aren't sure of this, thus there is no hope in your scenario,

 

[emiliano]

And even if I am not right, I have lived a happy and moral life and developped virtues that benefitted others, the right thing to do. Pascal does not make logical sense. His wager offers no good reason to believe, as you suggest. I'm glad you have faith and are happy, but you need to at least understand logic and reason, too.

This make no sense “Pascal does not make logical sense. His wager offers no good reason to believe” the wager tells us that there is nothing to loose but everything to win and you say this? Logic is a bugger of a thing though, it does not lead you to truth, it just mean that you put your argument in the right order Pascal arrives to the conclusion that the gains of believing far outweigh the horrible consequences of rejecting God, and that is not a good reason to you.
Now am going to work so, later!