Faith is being sure...

[Ignatius A]

I'm offering a response to the query.

I think you reacted rather erroneously over it.

Ok I'll play along. You said it was "freeing" to no longer believe, if I remember correctly. Please tell me, if you will, what you were freed from.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Do you drive an automobile?

yes

 

[Ignatius A]

yes

So you take on faith that everyone else driving a car will follow the same rules of the rules of the road that you follow. That's unreliable not noble.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So you take on faith that everyone else driving a car will follow the same rules of the rules of the road that you follow. That's unreliable not noble.

That is not faith. That is trust based on many years of driving experience. I am not believing they will follow the laws based on my hope that they will, it is based on experience and a track record that they mostly will. I also drive in a way to minimize damage if they don't.

 

[Ignatius A]

That is not faith. That is trust based on many years of driving experience. I am not believing they will follow the laws based on my hope that they will, it is based on experience and a track record that they mostly will. I also drive in a way to minimize damage if they don't.

No it's faith and your last sentence proves it.

 

[Soandso]

No it's faith and your last sentence proves it.

It really isn't faith given there's very real world consequences if people don't follow driving laws. The laws are structured in a way that promotes the least accidents and if there's a problem with the system the laws can be amended to limit accidents even more. Data can be derived from drivers, and so evidence can be collected. There's no faith involved in that

 

[Twilight Hue]

Ok I'll play along. You said it was "freeing" to no longer believe, if I remember correctly. Please tell me, if you will, what you were freed from.

It's nice to be free of embellishing and fabricating things and for once to just let the natural world speak for itself without human input to see what is actually going on.

That is what is freeing. The realization that the universe does not revolve around what we ourselves think and perceive indifferent to anyone's religion and beliefs.

The truth of the matter as it actually is and we are on its terms, not the other way around.

 

[Ignatius A]

It really isn't faith given there's very real world consequences if people don't follow driving laws. The laws are structured in a way that promotes the least accidents and if there's a problem with the system the laws can be amended to limit accidents even more. Data can be derived from drivers, and so evidence can be collected. There's no faith involved in that

It's nothing but faith

 

[Ignatius A]

It's nice to be free of embellishing and fabricating things and for once to just let the natural world speak for itself without human input to see what is actually going on.

That is what is freeing. The realization that the universe does not revolve around what we ourselves think and perceive indifferent to anyone's religion and beliefs.

The truth of the matter as it actually is and we are on its terms, not the other way around.

You used your faith to embellish and fabricate things? Why the hell would anyone do that?

 

[Soandso]

It's nothing but faith

So you're saying that all the data we collect on safe driving practices and the laws we enforce to incentivize those practices has nothing to do with evidence we gather based on the efficacy of those laws? Where does the faith part come in?

 

[Ignatius A]

So you're saying that all the data we collect on safe driving practices and the laws we enforce to incentivize those practices has nothing to do with evidence we gather based on the efficacy of those laws? Where does the faith part come in?

That's not what im saying at all. That's what you're saying. You have nothing but faith that the person driving at you from the opposite direction is going to follow the same rules as you.

 

[Nakosis]

Heh... I love how you had to skip over three definitions that support what I'm saying before you got to that one.

Yes, three definitions that I'm not using. What's your point?

 

[Soandso]

That's not what im saying at all. That's what you're saying. You have nothing but faith that the person driving at you from the opposite direction is going to follow the same rules as you.

That's not faith at all. That's knowledge given the experience I have that people who want to continue driving will follow the laws. They have every incentive to behave within the guidelines of the law and stand to lose much in trying to skirt the law

Even then I am skeptical and watch people's behaviors when I drive because experience has also shown that people can do dumb things such as texting or drinking and driving. I have to constantly pay attention and assess the situation as it happens around me while I drive, and I rely on evidenciary cues while that's happening. There's no faith in that

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, three definitions that I'm not using. What's your point?

You said that you were using "the definition of faith in the Bible," though.

 

[Ignatius A]

---

That's not faith at all. That's knowledge given the experience I have that people who want to continue driving will follow the laws. They have every incentive to behave within the guidelines of the law and stand to lose much in trying to skirt the law

Even then I am skeptical and watch people's behaviors when I drive because experience has also shown that people can do dumb things such as texting or drinking and driving. I have to constantly pay attention and assess the situation as it happens around me while I drive, and I rely on evidenciary cues while that's happening. There's no faith in that

Nothing but. Call it whatever you like. It seems to make you feel better.

 

[Kfox]

There are many discussions on this forum asking that Christian doctrines be proven (according to what one understands 'proof' to mean).

By 'proof', the person usually means "The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions". This reasoning is erroneously employed to show the validity of one's stated position of faith. However, this entirely misses the point...

Here is what the Bible clearly defines as faith: Hebrews 4:11 (NRSVue) shows the fundamental error of this approach: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

In other words, it is folly to apply the conventional standard of proof to one's religious convictions. Since it is both assurance and conviction, the conventional standard of proof clearly does not apply.

Isn't it about time that some people stopped challenging a person's faith by applying the principle of "proof"?

Faith is a bit more than just being sure, it's being sure without empirical evidence

 

[Soandso]

---

Nothing but. Call it whatever you like. It seems to make you feel better.

Maybe it would help me better if you were to define what you mean by faith. From what I'm gathering it seems your idea of "faith" is synonymous with "trust." Maybe I'm mistaken and you can clear things up

 

[Twilight Hue]

You used your faith to embellish and fabricate things? Why the hell would anyone do that?

Of course I did. Christianity among other religions do it all the time because I believed it regardless of the inability to prove and substantiate my beliefs.

So faith became the centerpiece, and made into something noble and virtuous sounding when in reality , faith isn't something I'd recommend people to rely on as if it's absolutely true and reliable without recourse.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is quite possible with that Biblical quote "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." , to consider that faith is built upon proofs that give us that assurance and give us those hopes.

The proofs may be more eclectic.

Regards Tony

I would rather say that faith is built upon 'evidence' that gives us assurance and gives us hopes.
Thee is and never will be 'proof' that God exists or that any religion is the truth from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually it's just the opposite. Read the quote again; it is not built upon proofs.

You are correct. There is no proof that anything in the Bible is true. Christian belief is based solely upon faith and things hoped for.