• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Faith is necessary for Science to function

Ideally, if you change out elements of a set with another iteration of the same element then you still have the same set. That's impractical with physical materials, but it's "close enough." More below.

Theseus' Ship is an interesting excercise in the notions of identity, but for one, the neurons we die with are essentially the ones we're born with -- if we're speaking of the self that is our mind. Even if they weren't, it seems reasonable that if a transition is gradual it doesn't matter, since the mind is an emergent property -- emergent properties don't particularly "care" if the proverbial elements of the set that compose it are switched out with the same.

2ih9fn8.jpg


You still have the same problem at hand. You're assuming the elements you swapped inside the set are the 'same'.

What if I went back, took all the discarded pieces of the original ship, and decided to reassemble another ship exactly like the original. It would now appear that both the 'restored ship' and the 'reassembled ship' to be equally qualified as the 'original'. Yet the two resulting ships are clearly not the same ship.

256tsuq.jpg


As a simplified example, consider a chess program -- a simple emergent thing with many analogues to a mind. Start switching out silicon chips in the computer and it doesn't really change what the program is, since part of what it means to be emergent is that it's based on the structure rather than the components -- so changing the components doesn't change what the emergent part is.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish here. There are many roads to Rome, but that doesn't mean all roads are the same. I can make a computer program that obeys the same syntax of it's language, while having a different semantic block and having the same output. That does not mean both programs are the same.

I disagree -- introspection is immediate and direct. There's no time between starting and finishing the cogito. Perhaps it takes time to elucidate what the cogito is (such as, say, Descartes writing a book!); but for the being, it's instantaneous.

Even if it is, once you realize it, the next moment you become a different entity.

teleporting.jpg



But this ignores that we have powerful justifications for the reality of non-dream states; and equally strong justification to believe the dream-states aren't real in the same sense as the waking world. It's rational to accept the waking world as real and the dreaming world as illusory. We don't require absolute sensory justification of the waking world to make that determination.

I already replied to this two posts ago. I will just post what I typed there.

Whatever we conceive in this state is a subjective matter, Even if we have strong justification for it to be real. In my dreams, I can astral travel amongst the stars and do all sorts of impossibilities with strong justification of it being real. In my dreams, I am unable to discern if I am dreaming or not.

What makes you think atheists lack belief in ontological necessity? Your definition of atheism is flat out incorrect -- as are your assumptions of atheists' ontologies. Just because ontologically necessary things exist doesn't mean that they're "God" in any meaningful sense of that term.

The Earth is a necessary entity for us, but not for the Sun. The Sun is a necessary entity for Earth, but not for other celestial entities. Just because something can be a necessary-entity doesn't automatically make it a God-entity.

I started another post on this topic:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/125972-defining-god.html#post2738551
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Whatever we conceive in this state is a subjective matter, Even if we have strong justification for it to be real. In my dreams, I can astral travel amongst the stars and do all sorts of impossibilities with strong justification of it being real. In my dreams, I am unable to discern if I am dreaming or not.
Are you trying to paint a picture of solipsism (like at the start of the movie, The Matrix)? Because it appears that way. If everything is subjective, then nothing is objective. If all you have is subjective, then by definition those things you imagine to be objective are solely what's imagined. You've just moved the goal-posts into your mind --that's solipsism.
 
Last edited:
Are you trying to paint a picture of solipsism (like at the start of the movie, The Matrix)? Because it appears that way. If everything is subjective, then nothing is objective. If all you have is subjective, then by definition those things you imagine to be objective are solely what's imagined. You've just moved the goal-posts into your mind --that's solipsism.

Please read the debate before joining the debate. This has been discussed too many times.

tumblr_lr9p3gNSZg1qzrkhpo1_400.jpg
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Please read the debate before joining the debate. This has been discussed too many times.
Sorry - I did miss a lot, and 30 pages is daunting. Can you at least tell me if in your image you've maintained a firm subject/object divide, as would appear to be the case, or surrendered it?

Edit: I've read the thread now, and I haven't seen the issue of solipsism addressed. I asked only to clarify where you've placed the subject/object divide.
 
Last edited:

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
This does not matter. If I did I would probably be an absolutely-necessary-entity. I do not know.
Is sufficience necessary? If it's not required that sufficient beings exist, then why would they? More importantly, why can we reason that they are not required if they obviously exist?
 
Suppose you were in a society where some 80% of the individuals believed in bumpfizzits. Politicians tried to pass laws based on beliefs about bumpfizzits, your community judges you based on your adherence (or failure to) to bumpfizzit taboos, and sometimes people even kill each other over bumpfizzits.

Do you think it would be useful to have a handy pre-determined word to denote skepticism of bumpfizzits?


Bold added for emphasis. "Remaining undecided" is essentially what is meant by lacking belief.

To believe is to assent to a proposition -- remaining undecided isn't a belief because it's not assenting to or outright denying the truth of either the positive proposition x or the negative proposition ¬x.

A Lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual commitment or a non-action concerning belief.

I no longer lack a belief in bumpfizzits, thanks to you! My belief of bumpfizzits is now similar to that of invisible dragons in garages, floating teacups in space, and flying unicorns. Their ridiculous notions in this conceived-reality state, so I chuckle and dismiss it.

Before you mentioned bumpfizzits, I was in a state of unbelief of bumpfizzits. I was unaffected by the concept of bumpfizzits. Now I am in a state of belief, even though that belief is either me accepting it, rejecting it, remaining undecided (Bold type added for emphasis), holding it off till later judgement or somewhere in between. I am now affected by the concept of bumpfizzits. :(
 
Is sufficience necessary? If it's not required that sufficient beings exist, then why would they? More importantly, why can we reason that they are not required if they obviously exist?

Sufficiency is not necessary, but a sufficient-entity can be necessary for another sufficient-entity. I realize where you are trying to get, but I simply have no answers for this, and feel it is impossible to know of certainty unless I was that absolutely-necessary-entity.

I can only make a logical assertion on it's accord, not it's nature. This is the endpoint of all endpoints that humanity will ever make in our conceived-reality state.

There is no actual account that we even exist, since we're universally sufficient. Cogito ergo sum is too weak.

2rxg0gp.jpg
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
There is no actual account that we even exist, since we're universally sufficient. Cogito ergo sum is too weak.
But if there can be no "actual account" because objective reality is forever beyond our reach, doesn't the word "to exist" become meaningless?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
To a universally-sufficient-entity, yes.
But then the world kinda falls apart.

There's no world that can be conceived that exists. There's no existant capacity to conceive, and no existant conceiver. And then there's no non-existence, either, because "to not exist" would be as meaningless as "to exist."
 
so your mind is unaware and imagined...?


:yes:

Yes.

But then the world kinda falls apart.

There's no world that can be conceived that exists. There's no existant capacity to conceive, and no existant conceiver. And then there's no non-existence, either, because "to not exist" would be as meaningless as "to exist."

The argument is not if the perceiving mind exists or not. The perceiving mind would be existence. We are universally sufficient so we do not exist.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The argument is not if the perceiving mind exists or not. The perceiving mind would be existence. We are universally sufficient so we do not exist.
So both reality and existence rest on the other side of a dividing line, in a world that is inaccessible to "the conceived world," which is us. How do we know that reality and existence are there, in that place? How do we know we haven't just conceived that they are there? How do we know we haven't just conceived that there is a divider between it and us.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The argument is not if the perceiving mind exists or not. The perceiving mind would be existence. We are universally sufficient so we do not exist.
That is flawed. The mind doesn't know of existence or not and can't be existence. Existence exists, the only question is whether our mind perceives reality in any way shape or form.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
You partly rephrased what I been arguing and claim it to be false. :confused:
Existence doesn't need our perception to be, therefore the mind cannot be existence itself since the perception is irrelevant.
How are you certain an absolutely-necessary-entity even exists?
Nothing is absolutely necessary. Existence just is.
 
Top