Faith Is Not Belief Without Evidence

[CynthiaCypher]

Faith is trusting. It is a form of knowing. I have faith in my dad, I know he loves me now and I know he will love me tomorrow when I get up in the morning and call him.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Faith according to webster is also: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;
So belief + conviction = FAITH!
But both are mind matters and so are delusions.
Faith is like a crutch needed by many to walk on difficult terrain as when one reaches to the state it becomes *self* evident and so proved in itself.
TRUTH stands naked on its own and needs no support/crutch, none to speak for IT.
Everyday in so many posts we find individuals reiterating that their Faith is the best and try to prove it. It is only because they have not realized the truth themselves by following their faith.
There can be no argument whether existence exists! IT IS THE TRUTH by ITSELF!
How one relates to THAT is what is of any meaning.

yes there is no harm to take the help of a crutch but keeping in mind that it is a temporary aid till can master walking on one's own feet which existence has bestowed for walking.

Love & rgds

 

[nrg]

I expect people to dismiss- they can dismiss it all they want.

Why would we dismiss it? I mean, this is evidence handed down by God, and nobody knows it's demographic better than an omnipotent being. It sounds odd that he would hand humanity evidence that not even the majority would accept.

 

[darkendless]

People have this idea that all of we that have faith, have it without any evidence. I want to make it clear that we do have evidence. Some of you may not accept it as evidence, and some of you will probably see it as faulty evidence, but it is with evidence that we have the faith. I don't expect anyone else to accept the evidence that I have for my own faith.

Any other thoughts on this?

Personal evidence is not evidence.

 

[garrydons]

Faith is the substance of the things hope for. The evidence of the things unseen.( Hebrews 11:1)

 

[Storm]

Faith is the substance of the things hope for. The evidence of the things unseen.( Hebrews 11:1)

A pretty turn of phrase, but I never could tease out any real meaning.

 

[darkendless]

Faith is the substance of the things hope for. The evidence of the things unseen.( Hebrews 11:1)

Rather wordy for something that means very little.

 

[HerDotness]

Friends,
Faith according to webster is also: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;
So belief + conviction = FAITH!
But both are mind matters and so are delusions.
Faith is like a crutch needed by many to walk on difficult terrain as when one reaches to the state it becomes *self* evident and so proved in itself.
TRUTH stands naked on its own and needs no support/crutch, none to speak for IT.
Everyday in so many posts we find individuals reiterating that their Faith is the best and try to prove it. It is only because they have not realized the truth themselves by following their faith.
There can be no argument whether existence exists! IT IS THE TRUTH by ITSELF!
How one relates to THAT is what is of any meaning.

yes there is no harm to take the help of a crutch but keeping in mind that it is a temporary aid till can master walking on one's own feet which existence has bestowed for walking.

What Zenzero said.

Some people do need the crutch of religious belief; I have at times, but I was aware that I was simply leaning on something that I didn't really believe. I knew doing that didn't make any sense, but it helped me feel better until I got my strength back.

Every Christmas, I sort of believe that there's a Santa Claus and that there can be peace on Earth. I know I'm wrong about both, but it feels good to pretend I believe them for a time.

Comforting delusions are pleasant, but it's more pleasant to be aware that that's what they are and to let go of them.

 

[Storm]

What Zenzero said.

Some people do need the crutch of religious belief; I have at times, but I was aware that I was simply leaning on something that I didn't really believe. I knew doing that didn't make any sense, but it helped me feel better until I got my strength back.

Every Christmas, I sort of believe that there's a Santa Claus and that there can be peace on Earth. I know I'm wrong about both, but feels good to pretend I believe them for a time.

Comforting delusions are pleasant, but it's more pleasant to be aware that that's what they are and to go of them eventually.

*sighs* Delusion is a false belief held despite presentation with invalidating evidence. Just because you can do that to yourself doesn't mean that's the whole of religious faith.

ETA: Also, religious faith is not necessarily, nor even usually, a "crutch." It needn't even be comforting.

 

[HerDotness]

Religious belief is a delusion as far as I'm concerned. YMMV

I've seen no convincing evidence that supports any of it.

And some things that the Christian Bible says happened, science can prove never occurred. The darkness that supposedly occurred upon Jesus's death on the cross, for instance. We can calculate that there was no eclipse that could have caused such darkness which Matthew said lasted for three hours. Certainly, there was no earthquake that opened tombs and resurrected the dead who went into the city where they were seen walking about.

So, how can any reasonable person believe that any of it is true?

 

[Storm]

Religious belief is a delusion as far as I'm concerned. YMMV

Not mileage, but accuracy of definition.

I've seen no convincing evidence that supports any of it.

That's not what "delusion" means.

And some things that the Christian Bible says happened, science can prove never occurred. The darkness that supposedly occurred upon Jesus's death on the cross, for instance. We can calculate that there was no eclipse that could have caused such darkness which Matthew said lasted for three hours. Certainly, there was no earthquake that opened tombs and resurrected the dead who went into the city where they were seen walking about.

So, how can any reasonable person believe that any of it is true?

Oh, right... I forgot that all religion is defined by literalist Christianity!

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

Also, religious faith is not necessarily, nor even usually, a "crutch." It needn't even be comforting.

Well, which do we see more of, believers who affirm that their reward awaits them in some afterlife? Or believers who say that they won't end up in any better position than if they didn't profess belief?

Which do we see more of, believers who say that everything that happens is part of their God's cosmic plan for his most beloved creation? Or believers who affirm that the universe is an indifferent, chaotic place in which humanity is just one of countless brief, unlikely accidents?

Yeah, I think I'm going with "crutch."

-Nato

 

[Storm]

Well, which do we see more of, believers who affirm that their reward awaits them in some afterlife? Or believers who say that they won't end up in any better position than if they didn't profess belief?

Which do we see more of, believers who say that everything that happens is part of their God's cosmic plan for his most beloved creation? Or believers who affirm that the universe is an indifferent, chaotic place in which humanity is just one of countless brief, unlikely accidents?

Yeah, I think I'm going with "crutch."

-Nato

What we see depends on where we look, to say nothing of what we expect.

 

[Thief]

It doesn't make any difference that people around the world believe all kinds of things that we can be reasonably certain don't happen, then? That's okay as long as they really trust the authorities who tell them these things are right?

So, when a bunch of people trust a leader who tells them to sell everything they have and meet on a hilltop to be picked up by an alien spacecraft, that's okay for them to do that. That's just how faith is.

Extend that...Someone tells us a virgin was told by an invisible spirit that she was pregnant and would have a child fathered by an invisible spirit, we should believe that this actually happened because we trust the person who told us this, and that person assures us that it's true. So, while we don't know how this person whom we trust knows it's true, but we agree to believe it is. We ask, "How do you know that's true?" The answer is, "It says so in the Bible, and I know the Bible is true because it tells me it's the Word of God."

What's the difference?

Dogma.

If it hasn't been done yet in this thread.....
Religion is a collection of beliefs....dogma....accepted as terms of that practice.

Faith is believing without evidence.
But that doesn't mean it's blind.

I see the the universe as evidence of God.
I do so by accepting the notion....Spirit first...substance as creation.
The big bang would have been no more than an ever expanding hollow sphere of energy...had it not been 'touched'.

The rotation had to be there BEFORE the expansion.
Pinch the singularity between fingers and give it a good hard 'snap'.
THEN 'let there be light'.

The 'spin' of things is the 'proof'.....I can see it.
So this is not blind faith...nor is it dogma.

Still...many have faith and have not seen the things I have seen.
They believe anyway.
The motivation would be 'life'.
They believe in this life and the life after this one.
They believe and live, in hope of continuance.

I believe the same, but I have reason to do so.
Is hope greater than reason?

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Just remember that Gautama had said: *kill the Buddha, even if he is on the way*.
Meaning even if the MIND holds on to God, it too is a delusion to be dropped.
Pure consciousness IS what It IS.

Love & rgds

 

[rusra02]

People have this idea that all of we that have faith, have it without any evidence. I want to make it clear that we do have evidence. Some of you may not accept it as evidence, and some of you will probably see it as faulty evidence, but it is with evidence that we have the faith. I don't expect anyone else to accept the evidence that I have for my own faith.

Any other thoughts on this?

Good point. Faith has often been mis-defined as 'belief in something for which there is no proof.' The Bible definition of faith is quite different: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1) The Greek term translated "assured expectation" was in common use in business documents, and carried the idea of a guarantee, as if a title deed or receipt. The greek term translated "evident demonstration" has the idea of producing evidence that proves something.
So faith is based on solid demonstrable evidence. For example God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship." (Romans 1:20)
The things God has made convince reasonable people of his power and Godship. This evidence precludes mere chance as causing the beauty and glory we see in natural things.

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[crocusj]

Lewis describes Faith pretty well, comparing it to trust,

such as trusting his dentist wouldn't overdose him when knocking him out for an operation and won't screw it up, he many or many not have reason to believe these things, but the moment before you go out, it sure takes a lot of faith either way

No, it does not. Why would anyone allow someone to "knock him out" on faith. The man has done it successfully many times before and has a certificate on his wall to show that he has been trained to do it. It is reasonable to expect a successful outcome this time. Do you not look before you cross even the quietests of roads?

 

[cottage]

Good point. Faith has often been mis-defined as 'belief in something for which there is no proof.' The Bible definition of faith is quite different: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1) The Greek term translated "assured expectation" was in common use in business documents, and carried the idea of a guarantee, as if a title deed or receipt. The greek term translated "evident demonstration" has the idea of producing evidence that proves something.
So faith is based on solid demonstrable evidence. For example God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship." (Romans 1:20)
The things God has made convince reasonable people of his power and Godship. This evidence precludes mere chance as causing the beauty and glory we see in natural things.

That I'm afraid is simply a believers' argument. 'Reasonable people' also hold that God exists only in the minds of those who want him to exist. There is no demonstrable evidence (if you're applying the term correctly) that the world was created and is maintained by a religious deity, and 'chance' is nothing more than an illogical red herring.

 

[Storm]

That I'm afraid is simply a believers' argument. 'Reasonable people' also hold that God exists only in the minds of those who want him to exist. There is no demonstrable evidence (if you're applying the term correctly) that the world was created and is maintained by a religious deity, and 'chance' is nothing more than an illogical red herring.

OK, much as that post made me , I think you're being a wee bit too hard on rusra. The bit about reasonable people believing, I took to be in response to the accusations of delusion. IOW, on a question that has "no demonstrable evidence" for either side, reasonable people may take either position.

 

[rusra02]

That I'm afraid is simply a believers' argument. 'Reasonable people' also hold that God exists only in the minds of those who want him to exist. There is no demonstrable evidence (if you're applying the term correctly) that the world was created and is maintained by a religious deity, and 'chance' is nothing more than an illogical red herring.

A house is demonstrable evidence that there was an intelligent designer and builder.

A piece of wood with someone's name on it is demonstrable evidence of a designer and wood carver.

A living cell, millions of times more complex than either of the above, is demonstrable evidence of a supreme Intelligent Designer and Maker. To say nothing of the millions of species of plants and animals, all demonstrating brilliant design and construction. And on and on the evidence grows.