Faith Is Not Belief Without Evidence

[HerDotness]

How would you go about judging which people are not capable of learning?

You appear to confuse capability with interest in and desire to learn what you wish to teach.

Some soil that seems infertile to you is merely exhausted from having heard it all before, investigated its claims and found your prized seed incapable of germination.

 

[darkendless]

I can't speak for thief, but I will give an answer as well. The way I see it as that since I believe God to be spirit, then my evidence would be spiritual. As I inferred before, it isn't scientific evidence, and it isn't physical evidence. Since dragons would be a physical thing, then you would have to have physical evidence.

Not necessarily. What if I believe they once existed but do no longer? What If I believed they're camping in the centre of the earth? There is no physical evidece because we are very limited in how we analyse things thousands of kilometers below out feet? What I see you doing is claiming "spiritual evidence" for something that is completely baseless. My "belief" that dragons are at the center of the earth has no physical evidence so by your reasoning it must be spiritual?

What it seems you're doing is trying to do is distort the meaning of "evidence" by applying a completely subjective term to the definition. How can you demonstrate the truth of your assertion (of God) which is essentially the definition of evidence. You can't, and therefore I dismiss the term "spiritual evidence" on the basis that you cannot demonstrate it beyond yourself.

 

[Willamena]

Some soil that seems infertile to you is merely exhausted from having heard it all before, investigated its claims and found your prized seed incapable of germination.

Now that's faith.

 

[ChristineES]

Not necessarily. What if I believe they once existed but do no longer? What If I believed they're camping in the centre of the earth? There is no physical evidece because we are very limited in how we analyse things thousands of kilometers below out feet? What I see you doing is claiming "spiritual evidence" for something that is completely baseless. My "belief" that dragons are at the center of the earth has no physical evidence so by your reasoning it must be spiritual?

What it seems you're doing is trying to do is distort the meaning of "evidence" by applying a completely subjective term to the definition. How can you demonstrate the truth of your assertion (of God) which is essentially the definition of evidence. You can't, and therefore I dismiss the term "spiritual evidence" on the basis that you cannot demonstrate it beyond yourself.

Let me clarify. There is no physical proof of God. There is physical evidence of God's work. I thought this was about God Himself.

 

[darkendless]

Let me clarify. There is no physical proof of God. There is physical evidence of God's work. I thought this was about God Himself.

I dismiss you use of the term evidence to describe what you see. I can only imagine what you consider "evidence of God's work." I dismiss it as evidence entirely.

 

[ChristineES]

I dismiss you use of the term evidence to describe what you see. I can only imagine what you consider "evidence of God's work." I dismiss it as evidence entirely.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[darkendless]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I am interested in your response to my request to demonstrate your "evidence." Would you consider your "evidence" subjective and easily dismissed by someone like me who is not spiritually inclined?

If so that was sort of the point of my posts. I feel that evidence is something which someone who is un-biased would be able to evaluate and accept. Do you see where i'm coming from?

 

[Quagmire]

Yes so here we are on the forums spreading seed because one never knows where fertile ground might be found.

A lot of people here spreading their seeds. All hoping the knowledge they have finds a place to take root.

And some people are just spreading the fertilizer.

Everyone has their job to do. :yes:

 

[Thief]

You appear to confuse capability with interest in and desire to learn what you wish to teach.

Some soil that seems infertile to you is merely exhausted from having heard it all before, investigated its claims and found your prized seed incapable of germination.

This takes from the original parable.
In the parable, the 'seed' is cast is all direction...as if it matters not.

Where ever it falls, the seed will try to take root.

Most of it fails...but not for fault of the seed.

Indeed, the desire to learn....will need to be there.

However, describing the 'learned' as exhausted soil, works just fine.
If the weeds already have the ground.....too bad.

 

[HerDotness]

This takes from the original parable.
In the parable, the 'seed' is cast is all direction...as if it matters not.

Where ever it falls, the seed will try to take root.

Most of it fails...but not for fault of the seed.

Which is why this the parable isn't a terrific analogy since its terms are inaccurate. Seed itself may be damaged and incapable of germinating no matter how favorable the soil or other conditions.

However, describing the 'learned' as exhausted soil, works just fine.
If the weeds already have the ground.....too bad.

Which is really somewhat insulting to those who've studied religions and concluded that non-belief is their choice--your intent, I suspect.

And your statements are another indication of the inaptness of the parable since exhausted soil probably won't grow much of anything, not even weeds. A farmer knows that it's stupid and wasteful to cast good seed onto exhausted or otherwise infertile soil.

The implication that education leads to thinking too much for oneself ought to frighten people and not be regarded as it often is by Christians as desirable.

Referring to the learned as you do is also inaccurate because quite a lot of well-educated people ARE religious.

 

[Nakosis]

And some people are just spreading the fertilizer.

Everyone has their job to do. :yes:

I knew that was coming.

 

[Nakosis]

You appear to confuse capability with interest in and desire to learn what you wish to teach.

No but I do see them going hand in hand.

Some soil that seems infertile to you is merely exhausted from having heard it all before, investigated its claims and found your prized seed incapable of germination.

If a seed were incapable of germination then the strain would have died out long ago.

 

[Nakosis]

I am interested in your response to my request to demonstrate your "evidence." Would you consider your "evidence" subjective and easily dismissed by someone like me who is not spiritually inclined?

If so that was sort of the point of my posts. I feel that evidence is something which someone who is un-biased would be able to evaluate and accept. Do you see where i'm coming from?

Just from my experience. Any evidence is a result of one's one experience with this stuff.

If you have a spiritual experience then you are free to evaluate it and accept it or reject it.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

So there are a number of people who have had these experiences and they are looking for answers. Various religions claim to have the answer to these experience which people have. Not having had one, the claims of those religions would have much interest for that individual.

I've talked to enough people to find it reasonable to accept there is something there. However it's not reasonable to expect someone who hasn't had such an experience to accept there is any validity to them.

 

[HerDotness]

If a seed were incapable of germination then the strain would have died out long ago.

Just forget it. The analogy is weak on a number of levels, one being the fact that SOME seeds of a particular plant may be incapable of germination whereas others may be perfectly fine. Seeds that have been stored under unfavorable conditions can also fail to germinate.

Those statements suggest some comparisons with attempts to proselytize that you probably don't want to investigate further.

 

[Nakosis]

Just forget it. The analogy is weak on a number of levels, one being the fact that SOME seeds of a particular plant may be incapable of germination whereas others may be perfectly fine. Seeds that have been stored under unfavorable conditions can also fail to germinate.

Those statements suggest some comparisons with attempts to proselytize that you probably don't want to investigate further.

I didn't want to investigate them at all.

My point is you never know where you'll find someone who has a interest in learning and I find everyone has something to teach. You never know under what circumstances those two are going to meet.

 

[beerisit]

Just from my experience. Any evidence is a result of one's one experience with this stuff.

If you have a spiritual experience then you are free to evaluate it and accept it or reject it.



So there are a number of people who have had these experiences and they are looking for answers. Various religions claim to have the answer to these experience which people have. Not having had one, the claims of those religions would have much interest for that individual.

I've talked to enough people to find it reasonable to accept there is something there. However it's not reasonable to expect someone who hasn't had such an experience to accept there is any validity to them.

If I have an experience in which I am told to kill all of my workmates with an Uzi and I believe that message came from god, am I justified in carrying out that command? If not why not?

 

[Nakosis]

If I have an experience in which I am told to kill all of my workmates with an Uzi and I believe that message came from god, am I justified in carrying out that command? If not why not?

That's really up to you. You have to determine the validity of your experience as best you are able. And whether it meets any moral obligations you feel necessary.

For example I'd never agree to sacrifice my son to God. I don't care who I thought it was from. You are still responsible for the actions you take. It doesn't matter if God told you to do it or not. You are free to disagree with what anyone tells you, even God. In the Bible there are stories of people who wrestled with or argue with God.

 

[Thief]

Which is why this the parable isn't a terrific analogy since its terms are inaccurate. Seed itself may be damaged and incapable of germinating no matter how favorable the soil or other conditions.

Which is really somewhat insulting to those who've studied religions and concluded that non-belief is their choice--your intent, I suspect.

And your statements are another indication of the inaptness of the parable since exhausted soil probably won't grow much of anything, not even weeds. A farmer knows that it's stupid and wasteful to cast good seed onto exhausted or otherwise infertile soil.

The implication that education leads to thinking too much for oneself ought to frighten people and not be regarded as it often is by Christians as desirable.

Referring to the learned as you do is also inaccurate because quite a lot of well-educated people ARE religious.

Actually the Carpenter's parable is spot on.
And His most obvious opponents were pharisees....
learned teachers and public leaders.

In this parable.... wisdom is the 'seed'.
God is the Sower.

Does God care which direction the wind blows?
Seed falls to any portion of ground.
Some ground is already occupied. Nothing more will grow there.

 

[ER.Robin Zoe]

People have this idea that all of we that have faith, have it without any evidence. I want to make it clear that we do have evidence. Some of you may not accept it as evidence, and some of you will probably see it as faulty evidence, but it is with evidence that we have the faith. I don't expect anyone else to accept the evidence that I have for my own faith.

Any other thoughts on this?

I would rather say that Belief without evidence is "BLINDBELIEF" and faith that follows blindbelief is often weak.
True evidence is the one which would be acceptabtle to every rational and sincere mind So you need to analyse what kind of evidence you have for what you believe in!

 

[beerisit]

That's really up to you. You have to determine the validity of your experience as best you are able. And whether it meets any moral obligations you feel necessary.

For example I'd never agree to sacrifice my son to God. I don't care who I thought it was from. You are still responsible for the actions you take. It doesn't matter if God told you to do it or not. You are free to disagree with what anyone tells you, even God. In the Bible there are stories of people who wrestled with or argue with God.

There are also stories of God ordering the murder of entire countries, how does that solve the problem of determining whether God told me or not? It would tend to support the command rather than disallow it.