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Faith is not evidence. This is why atheism has more of an advantage.

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't believe in God because of a book. The evidence is "I think, therefore I am" -- my subjective experience of consciousness. It's not part of the physical material universe and, therefore, there is something more.

You seem to be saying that you are aware of a realm of reality outside this universe based on your experiences in it. Is that correct? Because you are conscious in here, there must be more out there?

the assumption of materialism that most scientific atheists use is merely an assumption.

Science isn't grounded in philosophical materialism. Science could precede exactly as it does if every science were a materialist, idealist, neutral monist, dualist, or was agnostic on the matter.

The practice of science is grounded in observing physical reality. That brute fact is known as methodological materialism, and gives a nod to those who might want to speculate that there is something that exists that is not part of physical reality, by which is usually meant the collection of objects and processes capable of interacting with one another.

But scientists need not be materialists philosophically, and making that assumption neither helps not hinders scientific progress.

Science only operates in the domain of the physical material universe and generates provable knowledge. Religion operates in the spiritual realm; nothing about this realm can be proven.

Nothing about the spiritual realm can be proven? How about convincingly demonstrated? How about suggested by evidence better explained by positing a spiritual realm. If I understood you, you consider consciousness of that.

If so, I doubt you'll find much agreement here. Consciousness is evidence that consciousness exists in our universe, and is no better explained displacing it out of physical reality than by naturalistic hypotheses of its origin.

So it's really not just that nothing in this proposed alternate reality outside of ours can be proven, nothing in it can even be slightly supported with evidence, and nothing in it is demonstrable or observable to us even in principle. It's not just that we cant reach out and explore this realm now. We never can, at least in life.

My problem with that is that that is my definition of nonexistent. What is the fundamental difference between the existent and nonexistent? Exactly what are we saying about something when we call it nonexistent?

The difference between a rock actually orbiting Pluto and a nonexistent apple orbiting it is that the first one, even though we have no way to see that rock from earth and are very unlikely to ever encounter it ever, it is possible in principle to experience it by visiting it, or possibly even experience its extremely weak gravitational effect.

What we mean when we say that the apple is nonexistent is that it cannot be demonstrated, observed, or in any way experienced even in principle. Isn't that also what you say about the spiritual realm?

If the nonexistent and the undetectable are indistinguishable, why think about them differently?

There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method.

I assume by that you mean a method of knowing about a posited spiritual realm. If that were true, why do people think they know anything about it including of its existence?

Christians would say that their door to this other world is received scripture, church tradition, and prayer. This is how they know what they claim to know about God and realms such as heaven and hell.

Science does not explain the subjective experience of consciousness

Nor does religion or any approach to explaining reality. Saying that God did something has no more explanatory power than saying that it did it itself without a god. What if I said that Norman did it? Is than an explanation? No. Explanations include mechanisms for how something happened, which is why Darwin's theory can be considered an explanation for the diversity and commonality observed in the tree of life - a common ancestral population + genetic variation + natural selection + time --> what we see - but creationism cannot be called an explanation.

What would be the religious explanation for the existence of consciousness? That it is a creation of God? Does that make sense? God might be able to create conscious creatures, but He cant be the author of consciousness itself. He'd be conscious while doing it, right?

The universe had a beginning. God has no beginning.

How about a multiverse?
 
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WalterTrull

Godfella
There is no material physical evidence that can prove God using the scientific method. That does not mean there is no evidence. Materialist scientific atheists don't accept the evidence.
Interesting that science is starting to prove God. Several of the well esteemed Quantum guys think they're proved God. Well, not necessarily that they've proved God, but have disproved atheism. I'm waiting and watching, trying to hide the smug smile. Giggle, giggle.
 

socharlie

Active Member
Could you say what sort of connection you have with "metaphysical reality"?

One might take it that you feel your probably pointless pursuits make you some way superior, on a higher mental plane than those
closed minded people you have left so far behind. Not so?

Dont be dismissive and insulting to people who dont see it your way if you
do not want to be perceived as in the above.

Here is some metaphysics stuff. I suppose it is good sport, everyone
give it some thought, others may spend a lot of time on it.

"High above the dark streets on the 8th floor of the Acme building, one guy
is still searching for the answers to life's persistent questions. Guy Noir, Private Eye." That you? :D

Metaphysics aims to question the concepts of spirit science, which are related to every aspect of life. Some questions are:
What is being?

What types of objects are included in being?

Who created the being and why?

Is there any outside world beyond the human mind?

What is free will?

Does it exist?

Who created the universe and why?

Does God or the first cause exist?

If yes, then where is He and how can the being approach him?

Is He more than one? What does He want?

This stuff is not a joke, but not everybody feels a need to knock
himself out over things that will never be settled, Or even one flippin'
thing learned about them.
it is hard to explain, dreams that comes true. synchronicities that I can explain by random events, -many of those, Ionly I can see that stepping back and see hoe my spiritual life built for years. big questions like creation of universe , e.t.c, is not important at all , individual personal connection is what important, I can answer the questions you listed the way it was opened to me it does not mean that my answers would be universal.
everything is being, sentient beings is part of it.
there are many minds besides human.
free will it is what you chose to do and I can utilize it right now.
God , or what ever you call, exists and all being is within God.
we approach God through connections we all have - material and nonmaterial.
God wants beings to be and sentient beings not to harm anything.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Interesting that science is starting to prove God. Several of the well esteemed Quantum guys think they're proved God. Well, not necessarily that they've proved God, but have disproved atheism. I'm waiting and watching, trying to hide the smug smile. Giggle, giggle.

When you refer to them as 'Quantum guys' that makes me respect them less even without knowing who they are.
Just saying.
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
When you refer to them as 'Quantum guys' that makes me respect them less even without knowing who they are.
Just saying.
Sorry. My favorite is Richard Conn Henry . Here's a quote.

“Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality….

Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.”

Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist
Journal of Scientific Exploration Issue 21-3


I like his Mental Universe . It's a pdf.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Does it? What evidence or reason do you have for that claim? Unfortunately it can be show that physical brain damage impairs the ability to think. Consciousness appears to be a physical manifestation only in my experience.
I agree that consciousness is tightly coupled with brain function.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
1. How do you know it isn't part of the material universe?

2. Even if it is, how does that prove the existence of a deity?
1. Consciousness is not composed of matter operating under the material natural laws.
2. Descartes proved God this way, so I'm in good company.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
1. Consciousness is not composed of matter operating under the material natural laws.
2. Descartes proved God this way, so I'm in good company.
Your first premise needs to be proven. And Descartes only proved that he was, his proof of God is still extremely sketchy.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
So there is not actually 'spiritual knowledge', just 'spiritual opinion', right?
Yes, that is correct. Call it faith if you prefer.

Knowledge is obtained by applying good arguments and accepting the conclusions. Only in the physical realm are the proofs and arguments robust enough to be called knowledge. Perhaps you can call spiritual beliefs "knowledge" but it is knowledge of a different type that scientific knowledge.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Not "clearly", and there are several ideas I can offer that should give any reasonable person pause on that idea. One is that physical damage to the brain causes a degradation in the function of one's consciousness. This has happened enough times that it is proven. Another is a simple question... if consciousness is completely separate from the body and will somehow "escape" when the body stops functioning... then by what methods or using what utilities is the consciousness then able to perceive anything? The ONLY tools we have ever come across for perception of any and all stimulus are the physical ones we have at our disposal. Any answer here is complete and total speculation... which is worth nothing more than fiction.
Yes. consciousness is tightly correlated with brain function. Conscious can exist without a body via spiritual senses in a spiritual body. The mind can perform mental activity without a brain. Did you really think I wouldn't have an answer to this question? :)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
1. Consciousness is not composed of matter operating under the material natural laws.
2. Descartes proved God this way, so I'm in good company.
Hume would have said that you're bad company indeed, "Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
1. Consciousness is not composed of matter operating under the material natural laws.
2. Descartes proved God this way, so I'm in good company.

No, he did not prove God this way. He made an argument, but it failed to be a proof. he also thought the pineal gland was the connection to the spiritual realm. he was wrong there also.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, that is correct. Call it faith if you prefer.

Knowledge is obtained by applying good arguments and accepting the conclusions. Only in the physical realm are the proofs and arguments robust enough to be called knowledge. Perhaps you can call spiritual beliefs "knowledge" but it is knowledge of a different type that scientific knowledge.

I think I'll stick with 'opinion'. Unjustified belief is an opinion.

There has been no reason to justify belief in a supernatural realm. Consciousness, from everything we know, is a process in the material brain.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. consciousness is tightly correlated with brain function. Conscious can exist without a body via spiritual senses in a spiritual body. The mind can perform mental activity without a brain. Did you really think I wouldn't have an answer to this question? :)

Well, I'm not sure I see it as an answer. I see it as a claim. But you have given no reason to think that claim is true. While *all* evidence points to consciousness being a brain function.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Yes. consciousness is tightly correlated with brain function. Conscious can exist without a body via spiritual senses in a spiritual body. The mind can perform mental activity without a brain. Did you really think I wouldn't have an answer to this question? :)
Haha... obviously I knew you would have some kind of an answer... but I also knew it would not be sufficient or actually descriptive of anything claimed. You have absolutely no details to provide... even to yourself. And this doesn't trouble you at all? That you find yourself able to assert such things as "spiritual senses" without a shred of knowledge of the details? What makes this markedly different from make believe?
 
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