Fall of a fake Hindu Godman

[Aupmanyav]

What is the problem. Is there no religious law to go by? I believe Jewish law forbids rape.

In ancient India, such a person would either be given death punishment or externed, ex-communicated from the society and termed as a 'Chandala'. In which religion the priest do not take advantage of believers - Christians, Muslims? Or Jews? Sure, all religions prohibit it.

If Asaram had not committed any rape would he be a fake Hindu Godman ?

A fake is a fake. If it is not sexual crimes, they may be after money. Remember, the 93 Rolls Royce cars of Osho. A real Sadhu or a guru would have renounced all these material or carnal desires (need not have said this. Sayak has already given the Hindu position). One who seeks fame popularity is not a guru or a genuine sage. He is an egoist.

Such incidences are one of the reasons I'm of the "only God is my Guru (or priest/pastor/etc.)" persuasion.

I go one step beyond that. My mantra is "Guru ko maro goli" (Shoot the guru). Only few of the famous the modern gurus have benefited Hinduism, the rest are all charlatans.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

A fake is a fake. If it is not sexual crimes, they may be after money. Remember, the 93 Rolls Royce cars of Osho. A real Sadhu or a guru would have renounced all these material or carnal desires (need not have said this. Sayak has already given the Hindu position). One who seeks fame popularity is not a guru or a genuine sage. He is an egoist.

Unfortunately then that puts us in a situation of no gurus at all (which is why I do not have one)

and it leads to another thing .. gradually some educated Hindus are turning to Theravada Buddhism (I am one .. precepts and all)

I am amazed by the number of Indians on Quora who are Theravada Buddhist converts. Of course this is an insignificant minority .. probably no more than 10,000 all over India .. but it is happening due to YouTube and easy access to suttas on SuttaCentral and Access To Insight as well as huge number of free pdfs from Buddhist monks giving away information on meditation which a Hindu guru will not provide for many years (assuming in the first place that he knows at all)

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[Vinayaka]

Buyer Beware. I just hope the generalising stops. Yes there are scammers, but so too are there many legitimate organisations, Gurus, and Swamis running great institutions doing great charity, and bringing peace to many. We need religious leaders who we can look up to, who set examples of what to do.

Personally, I see a continuum, a range, in holy men and women. It's not either good or bad.

But there are some clues too ...

Lavish lifestyle, or not?
Humility, or not?
Behaviour of devotees.
Political involvement.
Tradition.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Unfortunately then that puts us in a situation of no gurus at all (which is why I do not have one).

and it leads to another thing .. gradually some educated Hindus are turning to Theravada Buddhism (I am one .. precepts and all).

Either you find a real guru like in case of Vinayaka or be your own guru like my avatara says. Theravada (and closely related Hinayana as in my case, without adornments, without bringing in faith), very analytical, that is a nice position. 'My 'advaita' is like that. It can be a part of Hinduism, IMHO, we needlessly separate them as Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

Either you find a real guru like in case of Vinayaka or be your own guru like my avatara says. Theravada (and closely related Hinayana as in my case, without adornments, without bringing in faith), very analytical, that is a nice position. 'My 'advaita' is like that. It can be a part of Hinduism, IMHO, we needlessly separate them as Hinduism and Buddhism.

Exactly what I follow and my position too.

The great gurus like Ramdas Kathiababa, Swami Sivananda .. are no more to be found.

Maybe not all of them want sex but they do want power .. they crave the adulation, people wanting to touch their feet and asking for blessings.

Political parties have played a role too. Giving gurus lot of importance because they can influence votes. It's a cesspool.

Now we come to know the Naga sadhus who attend Ganga Sagar Mela are hired actors .. beggars from Haridwar who are promised two square meals a day, if they pretend to be Naga sadhus.

But then again I am hardly surprised .. India is so corrupt .. that it could not but also infiltrate religion.

Oddly enough Theravada goes on producing monks of high calibre .. was watching this interview of a dhutanga dhutānga monk (practitioner of extreme austerities) yesterday .. very inspirational. Young whites are carrying on (and preserving) the ways of Forest Tradition. Wonderful.

Will end with a controversial comment .. between Asaram and other fake babas .. and dirty, crowded temples .. and highly ritualistic practices where people pray in the morning and take part in all the community pujas and then beat their wife or daughter-in-law for not bringing enough dowry .. does Hinduism at all exist in present day except in books on Vedanta?

For last few weeks had to work at times with a man who prided himself as a true/authentic Brahmin from UP .. and at every opportunity he asked me "why in Bengal you do not slice Muslims into tiny pieces like we did in 1992." Nauseating.

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Dhutanga", that is "Avadhuta" in Hindi. Lord Dattatreya is the chief of 'avadhutas' (which according to Wikipedia means free). "Avadhuta Gita" is an important book for Natha Sampradaya. The Uttar Pradesh chief Miinister, Yogi Aditya Nath, is the chief of the Goraksha Matha of Natha Sampradya.
Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit
Avadhuta - Wikipedia

 

[stvdv]

Asaram Bapu, a powerful self-proclaimed Hindu godman with millions of followers, was given life imprisonment for rape of a 16 year old girl on the pretext of driving evil spirits. A textbook case of what kind of guru-s to avoid and the growing clout of power-hungry men exploiting people's beliefs.

I met a woman and man who visited Haidakhan Babaji. Woman had sex with him, even husband agreed his wife had sex with Babaji; saw it as positive on their spiritual journey. Also her younger sister had sex with Babaji. I was quite shocked hearing this; they told me it was quite normal there for women to have sex with Babaji [I can imagine if the women see it as spiritual initiation].

First time I travelled to Osho I met a woman in plane who invited me to her room in Poona. On entering she sat naked on the bed. When asked I told her "I came to India on a spiritual quest, not a sex quest". So in my little experience many people use the Indian Tantra as an excuse to indulge in sex.

All people have different goals in life. I never met Babaji nor Asaram Bapu, so I can't judge these specific cases. Even I met quite a few people superimposing their youth traumas on Masters or even making up sex stories, and later confessing they just made stuff up. Weak minded persons visit ashrams also.

The real God-man will be unshaken whatever happens, and He will only do good. But nowadays there are more con-man and less God-man. IMHO.

If this Asaram Bapu is really a God-man, then he knew he had it coming.
I did see some of him on the news. I didn't get the impression he saw it coming.
So I trust they made the right decission in this case. Especially as she was so young.

Good that India finally is starting to clean up this abuse in name of God.
I am also glad they clean out similar mess in churches in the world.
The world is really quite a big mess, considering the large amount of sexual abuse worldwide.
For that the internet is great. More difficult to hide, although internet has now sex problem also.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

All people have different goals in life. I never met Babaji ... so I can't judge these specific cases

Babaji is a mystical figure who has never been actually seen. He is taken by many to be Shiva himself

Are you implying that he ...

Mahavatar Babaji - Wikipedia

Edit Add - I just understood you meant Haidakhan Babaji

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[stvdv]

Babaji is a mystical figure who has never been actually seen. He is taken by many to be Shiva himself
Are you implying that he ...
Mahavatar Babaji - Wikipedia

Edit Add - I just understood you meant Haidakhan Babaji
namaste
amani_bhava

I can not believe that this Haidakhan Babaji = the one Yogananda writes about [according the sex stories I heard]

@Amani_Bhava: Do you know more about this? Google gave Haidakhan Baba telling he is Shiva Mahavatar Babaji [But WEB can't be trusted blind nowadays]

In the Kumaon foothills of the Indian Himalayas, the birthplace or home of India's great saints of the past and present, there resided Shri Haidakhan Wale Baba (also spelled Herakhan Babaji). To those who asked, Haidakhan Baba acknowledged that He was the Shiva Mahavatar Babaji, known to many thousands in the West through Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi. A mahavatar is a human manifestation of God not born of woman.
babajiashram

 

[Amani_Bhava]

I can not believe that this Haidakhan Babaji = the one Yogananda writes about [according the sex stories I heard]

@Amani_Bhava: Do you know more about this? I did google and found that Haidakhan Baba said that He was the Shiva Mahavatar Babaji

In the Kumaon foothills of the Indian Himalayas, the birthplace or home of India's great saints of the past and present, there resided Shri Haidakhan Wale Baba (also spelled Herakhan Babaji). To those who asked, Haidakhan Baba acknowledged that He was the Shiva Mahavatar Babaji, known to many thousands in the West through Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi. A mahavatar is a human manifestation of God not born of woman.
babajiashram

I just learned about him in past few minutes.

In fact it is the first time I have heard of Haidakhan Babaji.

I do not believe there have been any true "gurus" after Ramana Maharishi and Aurobindo (and probably Anandamoyi Ma and Sivananda) all born before 1900.

I consider it my great fortune to have sat on lap of Anandamoyi Ma as an infant. Just in time!!!!!

There may have been .. but they have kept to themselves.

It is my firm belief that the spiritual tradition of India is lost forever. All we have left are the holy books and translations.

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[stvdv]

I just learned about him in past few minutes.
In fact it is the first time I have heard of Haidakhan Babaji.
I do not believe there have been any true "gurus" after Ramana Maharishi and Aurobindo (and probably Anandamoyi Ma and Sivananda) all born before 1900.

I consider it to me great fortune to have sat on lap of Anandamoyi Ma as an infant. Just in time!!!!!

There may have been .. but they have kept to themselves.
It is my firm belief that the spiritual tradition of India is lost forever. All we have left are the holy books and translations.
namaste
amani_bhava

Oh Amani Bhava you have been very blessed. I read about Anandamoyi Ma just a few years ago the first time. When I saw her foto, I just fell in Love. She is love incarnate I believe.

I have been blessed to have been with Sai Baba in His ashram for 10years. Many consider Him a fraud. Except: "Ramana Maharishi", "Aurobindo" and Anandamoyi Ma. All 3 spoke about Sai Baba as being the highest incarnation on earth ever. I don't hope the spiritual tradition of India is lost forever. I can't imagine God having taken care of India for thousands of years in so many incarnations would suddenly stop taking care. And for sure we still have the holy books. And they are the best.

Namaste
Taco

 

[Vinayaka]

Sensing that there might be someone wiser than us should be a motivating tool not to give up. Of course some folks have difficulty with that very basic concept. But I find it sad when we make these sweeping generalisations that all swamis are bad apples, and hence eliminate the possibility of learning from the legitimate wise men and women.

But it's difficult to discern as well. There are many controversial figures, and variations of all that. Little wonder it's difficult to figure out. I've seen many intelligent people who 'follow' Gurus I couldn't personally possibly follow. So yes it's tough.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

Oh Amani Bhava you have been very blessed. I read about Anandamoyi Ma just a few years ago the first time. When I saw her foto, I just fell in Love. She is love incarnate I believe.

I have been blessed to have been with Sai Baba in His ashram for 10years. Many consider Him a fraud. Except: "Ramana Maharishi", "Aurobindo" and Anandamoyi Ma. All 3 spoke about Sai Baba as being the highest incarnation on earth ever. I don't hope the spiritual tradition of India is lost forever. I can't imagine God having taken care of India for thousands of years in so many incarnations would suddenly stop taking care. And for sure we still have the holy books. And they are the best.

Namaste
Taco

Have to disagree a bit. Saibaba of Puttaparthi canot have been praised by Ramana or Aurobindo. He was only 25 when they died.

Sai of Puttaparthi was the first billionaire Godman India produced. He was without doubt a fraud.

Making $7 billion fortune is not what an incarnation does The secret world of Sathya Sai Baba's Rs 40,000 cr empire

Aurobindo, being a Bengali, was a first rate scholar. He would not call Sai of Puttaparthi as being highest (or any) incarnation. Simple not believable.

One thing many Hindus do not understand because they do not study Buddhism is .. it is quite easy to get upto the 2nd Jhana (say a year and half of really hard core meditation) .. by 2nd jhana one can read minds and by 3rd Jhana one can cause miracles to happen .. change small bit of outcome here and there .. make a legal case go someone's way .. for instance.

That is not any great spiritual height nor the aim.

There is a famous story of Buddha asking a yogi what he had attained .. the yogi replied I can walk across this river and Buddha retorted why would I spend years learning a trick when giving two pence to the boatman will suffice.

Read this account of a mystic with equal powers meeting Sai Baba Odd Gods of the South

Sorry for the dissonance.

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[atanu]

..
I consider it to me great fortune to have sat on lap of Anandamoyi Ma as an infant. Just in time!!!!!
..

You are 1982 born?

 

[Amani_Bhava]

You are 1982 born?

I am 40 .. and I sat on her lap at age of 1ish

namaste

amani_bhava

 

[stvdv]

One thing many Hindus do not understand because they do not study Buddhism is .. it is quite easy to get upto the 2nd Jhana (say a year and half of really hard core meditation) .. by 2nd jhana one can read minds and by 3rd Jhana one can cause miracles to happen .. change small bit of outcome here and there .. make a legal case go someone's way .. for instance.

That is not any great spiritual height nor the aim.

There is a famous story of Buddha asking a yogi what he had attained .. the yogi replied I can walk across this river and Buddha retorted why would I spend years learning a trick when giving two pence to the boatman will suffice.

Sorry for the dissonance

I agree with what you say here. I also read that siddhis are a great obstacle to enlightenment. So I told God when starting my spiritual quest not to give me siddhis. But like you explained you just get them, whether you want them or not.

I like your story about Buddha. Buddha was my first love after Jesus.
About Sai Baba "let's agree to disagree"
And don't be sorry for the dissonance: We only disagree on 1 note sofar. I rather look at the 5 notes we have in common

Namaste

 

[atanu]

I am 40 .. and I sat on her lap at age of 1ish
namaste
amani_bhava

I joined my job in August 1982. On 26th or 27th August same year, a friend (another fresher) and me remained awake the whole night, discussing Ma Anandamoyi. In the morning newspaper we read of her death. Till date I consider that as some kind of message. She was married to my maternal grandfather's brother, called 'Bholanath' (although the marriage was not consummated). We used to hear a lot about Ma Anandamoyi from my mother. I met her only once during 1969 or 1970 at her Kalkaji Ashrama in Delhi.

 

[stvdv]

I joined my job in August 1982. On 26th or 27th August same year, a friend (another fresher) and me remained awake the whole night, discussing Ma Anandamoyi. In the morning newspaper we read of her death. Till date I consider that as some kind of message. She was married to my maternal grandfather's brother, called 'Bholanath' (although the marriage was not consummated). We used to hear a lot about Ma Anandamoyi from my mother. I met her only once during 1969 or 1970 at her Kalkaji Ashrama in Delhi.

What a beautiful experience. Thanks for sharing. And Ma being even family. If that is not some kind of message I don't know what is. For me MahaShivaratri always has been very special. Staying up all night, being with the divine.

 

[sun rise]

It may be noted that his son is accused in a different rape case and is presently interred in Surat jail (Gujarat).
Kindly go to page 11 here: https://epaper.timesgroup.com/Olive/ODN/TimesOfIndia/# to know about about great gurus presently facing similar criminal cases.
Sayak and myself, we have posted this to make people aware of what is happening.

Many of those types in India are no different than Christian church ministers in the USA who commit all sorts of crimes while putting on a false face of rectitude.

 

[sun rise]

While its impossible for anyone to be perfect,

The great gurus like Ramdas Kathiababa, Swami Sivananda .. are no more to be found.

I would put it as very very difficult to find. In the recent past, I would list Nisagadatta Maharaj and Papaji as two authentic figures from the recent past.