PureX
Veteran Member
That sounds right, but I believe it's actually quite wrong. Joy comes from transcending our fear, into the courage of and to love.
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Fear is your enemy
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McBell
Admiral Obvious
When you love something you fear losing it.
If you do not fear losing it, do you honestly love it?
It is my opinion the answer is no.
PureX
Veteran Member
I can't love and possess the beloved at the same time. Not really. The only way I can truly love someone is to "let them be what they are", in my heart and mind. Otherwise, I'd just be loving who and what I want them to be, and not who and what they are. But if I love them enough to 'let them be', they can be themselves, and I can love them for who they are without being afraid that they might go away. And they might go away at any time. This is a fact of life.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
One must judge of search by the standard of the Majnun of Love. [1] It is related that one day they came upon Majnun sifting the dust, and his tears flowing down. They said, "What doest thou?" He said, "I seek for Layli." They cried, "Alas for thee! Layli is of pure spirit, and thou seekest her in the dust!" He said, "I seek her everywhere; haply somewhere I shall find her."
[1 Literally, Majnun means "insane." This is the title of the celebrated lover of ancient Persian and Arabian lore, whose beloved was Layli, daughter of an Arabian prince. Symbolizing true human love bordering on the divine, the story has been made the theme of many a Persian romantic poem, particularly that of Nizami, written in 1188-1189 A.D.
Yea, although to the wise it be shameful to seek the Lord of Lords in the dust, yet this betokeneth intense ardor in searching. "Whoso seeketh out a thing with zeal shall find it." [1]
[1 Arabian proverb.]
The true seeker hunteth naught but the object of his quest, and the lover hath no desire save union with his beloved. Nor shall the seeker reach his goal unless he sacrifice all things. That is, whatever he hath seen, and heard, and understood, all must he set at naught, that he may enter the realm of the spirit, which is the City of God. Labor is needed, if we are to seek Him; ardor is needed, if we are to drink of the honey of reunion with Him; and if we taste of this cup, we shall cast away the world.
(Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 6)
Regards,
Scott
[1 Literally, Majnun means "insane." This is the title of the celebrated lover of ancient Persian and Arabian lore, whose beloved was Layli, daughter of an Arabian prince. Symbolizing true human love bordering on the divine, the story has been made the theme of many a Persian romantic poem, particularly that of Nizami, written in 1188-1189 A.D.
Yea, although to the wise it be shameful to seek the Lord of Lords in the dust, yet this betokeneth intense ardor in searching. "Whoso seeketh out a thing with zeal shall find it." [1]
[1 Arabian proverb.]
The true seeker hunteth naught but the object of his quest, and the lover hath no desire save union with his beloved. Nor shall the seeker reach his goal unless he sacrifice all things. That is, whatever he hath seen, and heard, and understood, all must he set at naught, that he may enter the realm of the spirit, which is the City of God. Labor is needed, if we are to seek Him; ardor is needed, if we are to drink of the honey of reunion with Him; and if we taste of this cup, we shall cast away the world.
(Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 6)
Regards,
Scott
McBell
Admiral Obvious
And if you do not have a fear that that someone will go, how can you love them?
PureX
Veteran Member
The same way I will love them even if they do go. Because the love is about them, not me and what I want from them. I mean, it's not like I want them to go, or that I wouldn't miss them terribly. It's that love and fear can't really amicably coexist. If I love someone, I have to love them for them, not for me. And that means I have to be willing to accept that they might choose to go away from me at some time for whatever reason. But if they do, I won't love them any less. Though I'll miss them a lot, too.
This was a hard lesson in life for me to learn. I can't say even today I can love someone that freely, without any fear at all. But I did learn that fear comes from selfishness. And I did learn that love is not about what I want. So I believe that I shouldn't be afraid to love. And if I am, I'm not talking about love, but desire. They sometimes seem the same, but aren't.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
I am not talking about being afraid to love.
i am talking about the fear that exists because you love.
PureX
Veteran Member
I understand what you mean, but I do believe that such a fear is based on the self, and not on the other, and therefor is not love, but is actually antithetical to love.
Francine
Well-Known Member
God doesn't want us to be in pain either, but he created us with the ability to feel pain, for the same reason he created us with the ability to feel fear: for self-defense.
methylatedghosts
Can't brain. Has dumb.
PureX, I think you've partly written what I'm finding so hard to put down into words. Love and fear are opposites. You can't have one and the other at the same time. I think it's either or.
I'll probably be able to say it better in a few days. It's coming
I'll probably be able to say it better in a few days. It's coming
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
PureX, I think you've partly written what I'm finding so hard to put down into words. Love and fear are opposites. You can't have one and the other at the same time. I think it's either or.
I'll probably be able to say it better in a few days. It's coming
Yet one can have love and awe at the same time, or fear and awe.
Can one have love and fear at the same time? I am reminded of a Paul Simon's son
Words & music by paul simon
Slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
You know the nearer your destination
The more youre slip slidin away
I know a man
He came from my home town
He wore his passion for his woman
Like a thorny crown
He said Delores
I live in fear
My love for you's so overpowering
I'm afraid that I will disappear
Slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin away
I know a woman
Became a wife
These are the very words she uses
To describe her life
She said a good day
Ain't got no rain
She said a bad days when I lie in bed
And think of things that might have been
Slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin away
And I know a fa-ther
Who had a son
He longed to tell him all the reasons
For the things he'd done
He came a long way
Just to explain
He kissed his boy as he lay sleeping
Then he turned around and headed home again
Slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin away
God only knows
God makes his plan
The information's unavailable
To the mortal man
We work our jobs
Collect our pay
Believe were gliding down the highway
When in fact were slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
Slip slidin away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin away
Regards,
Scott
methylatedghosts
Can't brain. Has dumb.
See, I don't think that is love. I think that's an infatuation with someone. I think that our "romantic" notions of love aren't really love at all. When someone is supposed to be what "completes" you. When someone else is "the reason you get up in the morning".
That's all very romantic, but you depend on that person to make you feel how you do. Rather than simply feeling a way, regardless of what that person does, and who that person is. And even more so, your love has a condition: that the person you love is always there and doesn't do this or that. Love is unconditional. If someone goes away, and because of that, you no longer love them, then it wasn't love in the first place. If someone goes away, let them go, in love. They are simply being who and what they choose to be.
More coming later.... lost my thoughts
That's all very romantic, but you depend on that person to make you feel how you do. Rather than simply feeling a way, regardless of what that person does, and who that person is. And even more so, your love has a condition: that the person you love is always there and doesn't do this or that. Love is unconditional. If someone goes away, and because of that, you no longer love them, then it wasn't love in the first place. If someone goes away, let them go, in love. They are simply being who and what they choose to be.
More coming later.... lost my thoughts
Francine
Well-Known Member
Even mindless things like single cells fear the approach of that which seeks to eat them.
methylatedghosts
Can't brain. Has dumb.
I have something to type up again - will post back later this evening!
methylatedghosts
Can't brain. Has dumb.
Ok - here goes.
It's a little long, so bear with me.
We (humans) have created an entire reality around love. It is a fear-based reality, rooted (mainly) in the idea of a fearful, vengeful God. Its Sponsoring Thought is wrong, but to deny that thought would be to disrupt our whole theology (most of ours, anyway). And though the new theology which would replace it would truly be our salvation, we cannot accept it, because the idea of a God Who is not to be feared, Who will not judge, and Who has no cause to punish is simply to magnificent to be embraced within our even grandest notion Who and What God Is.
This fear-based love reality dominates our experience of love; indeed, actually creates it. For not only do we see ourselves receiving love which is conditional, we also watch ourselves giving it in the same way. And even while we withold and retreat and set our conditions, a part of us knows that this is not what love really is. Still, we seem powerless to change the way we dispense it. We've learned the hard way, we tell ourselves, and we'll be damned if we're going to leave ourselves vulnerable again. Yet the truth is, you'll be damned if you don't.
(by our own mistaken thoughts about love so we damn ourselves never to experience it fully.)
Every action taken by human beaings is based in love or fear, not simply those dealing in relationships. Decisions affecting business, industry, politics, religion, education, social agenda, economic goals, choices involving war, peace, attack, defense, aggression, submission; determines to covet or give away, to save or to shar, to unite or to divide - every single free choice we ever undertake arises out of one of the only two possible Sponsoring Thoughts: a thought of love or a thought of fear.
Fear is the energy which contracts, closes down, draws in, hides, hoards, harms.
Love is the energy which expands, opens up, sens out, stays, reveals, shares, heals.
Fear wraps our bodies in clothing, love allows us to stand naked. Fear clings to and clutches all that we have, love gives all that we have away. Fear holds close, love holds dear. Fear grasps, love lets go. Fear rankles, love soothes. Fear attacks, love amends.
Every human thought, word, or deed is based in one or the other. We have no choice about this, because there is nothing else from which to choose. But you have free choice about which of these to select.
Right. That's that. Any thoughts/comments?
It's a little long, so bear with me.
We (humans) have created an entire reality around love. It is a fear-based reality, rooted (mainly) in the idea of a fearful, vengeful God. Its Sponsoring Thought is wrong, but to deny that thought would be to disrupt our whole theology (most of ours, anyway). And though the new theology which would replace it would truly be our salvation, we cannot accept it, because the idea of a God Who is not to be feared, Who will not judge, and Who has no cause to punish is simply to magnificent to be embraced within our even grandest notion Who and What God Is.
This fear-based love reality dominates our experience of love; indeed, actually creates it. For not only do we see ourselves receiving love which is conditional, we also watch ourselves giving it in the same way. And even while we withold and retreat and set our conditions, a part of us knows that this is not what love really is. Still, we seem powerless to change the way we dispense it. We've learned the hard way, we tell ourselves, and we'll be damned if we're going to leave ourselves vulnerable again. Yet the truth is, you'll be damned if you don't.
(by our own mistaken thoughts about love so we damn ourselves never to experience it fully.)
Every action taken by human beaings is based in love or fear, not simply those dealing in relationships. Decisions affecting business, industry, politics, religion, education, social agenda, economic goals, choices involving war, peace, attack, defense, aggression, submission; determines to covet or give away, to save or to shar, to unite or to divide - every single free choice we ever undertake arises out of one of the only two possible Sponsoring Thoughts: a thought of love or a thought of fear.
Fear is the energy which contracts, closes down, draws in, hides, hoards, harms.
Love is the energy which expands, opens up, sens out, stays, reveals, shares, heals.
Fear wraps our bodies in clothing, love allows us to stand naked. Fear clings to and clutches all that we have, love gives all that we have away. Fear holds close, love holds dear. Fear grasps, love lets go. Fear rankles, love soothes. Fear attacks, love amends.
Every human thought, word, or deed is based in one or the other. We have no choice about this, because there is nothing else from which to choose. But you have free choice about which of these to select.
Right. That's that. Any thoughts/comments?
PureX
Veteran Member
I think that's essentially true, and I blame the advertising industry. We are told day in and day out that all of life is about us getting what we want. And so we naturally apply this to our relationships as well. The stores are full of books telling us all how we should have exactly what we want, how we want it, when we want it, and if we don't get it we should move on to the next consumer relationship.
But love isn't about us. Love is about honoring someone else. And it's hard for us to hear this message, or to understand it in a consumption driven culture.