Female Arab talks sense

[Badran]

People speak very highly of you on here Badran, and I'd like to learn from you.. but I just cannot get my head around how ignorant some of your posts seem to me! I know I must appear very ignorant also, and I am! But know I'm not attacking your belief in Allah, or your relationship with Islam - which at times appears positively enlightened - I'm attacking the political Ideology that is being practised in Islamic countries today.

Thanks, i'd be happy to address anything you want.

What is going on as a result of this religion, be it extremist, fundamental or just normal practise is totally and utterly in opposite to my philosophical and moral viewpoint, in which the total liberation of the individual is paramount.

And its no good providing defensive arguments by comparision with Western social ills... yes we have them.. every society has them in some form. But what every society doesn't have is freedom.
I have freedom. As a western female eveything is possible for me. I am completely free to do my will, whatever that may be. And no law will condemn me to physical harm or death.
I can go where I will, I can work where I will, I can dress how I will, I can create what I will, I can eat and drink what I will and I can love who I will, when, where with whom I will... and noone will deny me these rights.

Everything from what you said, can be done by any muslim women. The problem is you're looking at the worst examples, and coming to conclusions from them.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I have freedom. As a western female eveything is possible for me. I am completely free to do my will, whatever that may be. And no law will condemn me to physical harm or death.
I can go where I will, I can work where I will, I can dress how I will, I can create what I will, I can eat and drink what I will and I can love who I will, when, where with whom I will... and noone will deny me these rights.

This word freedom has became so intense for some that they fail to realise the bad effects it has on their lifes ( Im talking in general darling, not about you specifically )

You can go where you will, but you wont have a protector , a provider and who will take care of everything while you sit back on your chair like a queen ( Note that travelling on long distances is the only thing you should do with a relative , not that you need a man everywhere you go as some tend to think)

You can work as you will, but you wont feel the taste that your father, brother and husband are obliged to work for you , and if you ever feel like working all your money can go in your pocket , without having to share it or provide for anyone .

You can dress how you want, but you wont have the chance to feel that feeling of no one starring at your back, and following you with disgusting looks. You wont feel that feeling when a man is talking to you (for something important) and lowering his gaze in order to keep your chastity and fearing to see a part of you which is forbidden on him to look at.

You can drink what you want, but you'll be the only responsible when someday, very angry or depressed, you'll ruin your whole life by an excessive glass of beer or anything similar.

Laws in Islam are here to protect our chastity and shyness, to protect our kind and fragile nature, instead of running after men trying to be like them in everything while our physiology is totally different, and needs totally different rules in life. Feminisim should be called Malinisim intead, since the basic concept of it call for the ressemblance of men in everything they do and thats what the thirst for "freedom" blind people from realising.

I hope this message reaches you in the best state of health and faith


And ALlah knows best.

 

[Octavia156]

This word freedom has became so intense for some that they fail to realise the bad effects it has on their lifes ( Im talking in general darling, not about you specifically )

You can go where you will, but you wont have a protector , a provider and who will take care of everything while you sit back on your chair like a queen ( Note that travelling on long distances is the only thing you should do with a relative , not that you need a man everywhere you go as some tend to think)

Ooh fatima, with the deepest respect we are very different women.
And this view you hold would be scoffed at by most modern westerners.

I do not want to be provided for - thats for footballers wives and gold diggers. I wouldn't mind if my partner worked and I didn't if I was a mother... but that is different.

You can work as you will, but you wont feel the taste that your father, brother and husband are obliged to work for you , and if you ever feel like working all your money can go in your pocket , without having to share it or provide for anyone .

feel the taste? That someone has to work to provide for me? That would taste bad for many western women - and we like it that way! It does sound nice to be bought anything you need I suppose, but I have that with my family and we are not religious, we just care about each other - there's no Obligation.

You can dress how you want, but you wont have the chance to feel that feeling of no one starring at your back, and following you with disgusting looks. You wont feel that feeling when a man is talking to you (for something important) and lowering his gaze in order to keep your chastity and fearing to see a part of you which is forbidden on him to look at.

Women in the West who dress provocatively do so because they want men to look at them with 'disgusting' looks. It turns them on.
Actually, Western men are a lot more modest with their admiration of women.. MUCH more so then Arab men who will stare straight at you like your in a sordid zoo - even if you aren't dressed provocatively.

Forbidden for him to look at!!!

You can drink what you want, but you'll be the only responsible when someday, very angry or depressed, you'll ruin your whole life by an excessive glass of beer or anything similar.

I agree with you about alcohol Fatima. Not a fan myself

Laws in Islam are here to protect our chastity and shyness, to protect our kind and fragile nature,

who told you must be chaste, shy, kind and fragile?

instead of running after men trying to be like them in everything while our physiology is totally different, and needs totally different rules in life. Feminisim should be called Malinisim intead, since the basic concept of it call for the ressemblance of men in everything they do and thats what the thirst for "freedom" blind people from realising.

Western women don't want to BE men - u've missed the point of Feminism there.. we are equal to men.
We can be tough and strong, the breadwinners and the labours (IF WE SO CHOOSE)
And likewise our men can be shy, kind and fragile... its about freedom to be whatever you want to be and not be told that "Allah knows best"

 

[LittleSidhe]

I completely agree with what she was saying, when she said that asking people to strip themselves of their compassion is not a spiritual thing.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Ooh fatima, with the deepest respect we are very different women.
And this view you hold would be scoffed at by most modern westerners.

I do not want to be provided for - thats for footballers wives and gold diggers. I wouldn't mind if my partner worked and I didn't if I was a mother... but that is different.

feel the taste? That someone has to work to provide for me? That would taste bad for many western women - and we like it that way! It does sound nice to be bought anything you need I suppose, but I have that with my family and we are not religious, we just care about each other - there's no Obligation.


Women in the West who dress provocatively do so because they want men to look at them with 'disgusting' looks. It turns them on.
Actually, Western men are a lot more modest with their admiration of women.. MUCH more so then Arab men who will stare straight at you like your in a sordid zoo - even if you aren't dressed provocatively.

Forbidden for him to look at!!!

I agree with you about alcohol Fatima. Not a fan myself

who told you must be chaste, shy, kind and fragile?
Western women don't want to BE men - u've missed the point of Feminism there.. we are equal to men.
We can be tough and strong, the breadwinners and the labours (IF WE SO CHOOSE)
And likewise our men can be shy, kind and fragile... its about freedom to be whatever you want to be and not be told that "Allah knows best"

Take it or leave it ; No one is forcing anything on you.

 

[Badran]

Octavia, just so you don't misunderstand, these things are not obligatory on muslim women, fatima is merely explaining the good she sees in these things, not implying that they are obligatory.

A woman is not obligated to have a protector or provider, a woman doesn't have or forced to wear the hijab or niqab, she can work if she wants, these things are matters of choice.

 

[Octavia156]

Octavia, just so you don't misunderstand, these things are not obligatory on muslim women, fatima is merely explaining the good she sees in these things, not implying that they are obligatory.

A woman is not obligated to have a protector or provider, a woman doesn't have or forced to wear the hijab or niqab, she can work if she wants, these things are matters of choice.

In the West its a choice... in a strict Muslim country women HAVE to cover themselves - AM I WRONG??

 

[Octavia156]

Take it or leave it ; No one is forcing anything on you.

Thank you, I know.
I mean you no disrepect. In fact, my devout Christian mother would agree with everything you said. But then I look at her and see someone who has repressed everything she might have been because she was afraid God would punish her.
It saddens me deeply.

Being shy, kind, chaste and fragile has done her no favours whatsoever .


Does it not concern you that your sisters in faith are being forced to live in SUCH oppressive conditions in places like Saudi?

 

[YmirGF]

In the West its a choice... in a strict Muslim country women HAVE to cover themselves - AM I WRONG??

No, it is a choice. The choice is between acceptance and serious repercussions for not accepting. Not much of a choice, really.
It's like those famous "choices" your parents probably gave you when you were growing up.

Choice or consequence... take your pick.

 

[Badran]

In the West its a choice... in a strict Muslim country women HAVE to cover themselves - AM I WRONG??

It is a choice every where, except for a few countries, and we disagree completely with multiple things that happen in these countries, not only injustice to women. These couple of countries you have in mind do NOT represent Islam. Why do you think we always say there is no Islamic state today?

That is not Islamic. There is not one single rule in Islam that says a woman can't work, or a woman should be forced to wear hijab, or anything like this. And, the majority of countries that contain a muslim majority lives like this. No forcing or punishment whatsoever for these matters.

This is why most of the places you're referring to have extremism all around.

 

[Octavia156]

No of course i don't ignore anything. There is no such concept as violence towards unbelievers. Most of the verses in the Quran talking about non-believers are referring to certain unbelievers of a certain incidents that happened in the past, and people so often misunderstand it, and i have been asked more than once about such verses, and people did indeed misunderstand and think that this is addressed or aimed at unbelievers in general.

Quite simply, there is no such thing as violence towards unbelievers, it contradicts with everything.

This post has really made me think about how your Book may be being misinterpreted.

:candle:

Another question: Do you think there is a distinction between a religion of Islam and Islamic politics and society?

 

[Octavia156]

Check this out... skip to 30mins in

Saudi in Denver?

BBC iPlayer - Storyville: 2010-2011: Leaving the Cult

 

[Badran]

This post has really made me think about how your Book may be being misinterpreted.

:candle:

Another question: Do you think there is a distinction between a religion of Islam and Islamic politics and society?

I'm glad to hear that.

For your question, Islam contains some rules, some of them are not obligatory, as in nobody should force anybody to do it, and nobody should be punished for not doing it. Other rules, are concerned with the community, like Zakat. The second type of rules are the ones concerned with society. To live in an Islamic society, we should implement these rules. A lot of misunderstandings occur with people who aren't very familiar with Islam, as to which rules are obligatory and which is not. The ones who are obligatory or met with penalty if not fulfilled is basically the law of an Islamic society if an Islamic system is implemented, rules that are usually approved by the people subject to it, as they are muslims. (As for how does it apply to non-muslims living in an Islamic society, thats a little complicated, because there is more than one way to do it, so i won't explain that part now).

With the changes in our life today from back then in the time of our prophet, there are new rules that have also been made, which also are not always good, as they are the work of the scholars trying to come up with rules for these new situations, that there isn't any opinion on, because it didn't exist in the days of our prophet, and therefore its not addressed neither in the Quran nor the Hadith. So, in other words, the Islamic system is complicated and is something where opinions would play huge roles. We muslims don't see a distinction between the two, it is an entire way of life. However, implementing an Islamic system today needs some thought, because its not easy. It doesn't have to be a caliphate system in my opinion, it could be applied in a modern way, and putting in regard the rules of Islam.

So, in other words, the rules of an Islamic society, aside from a few of these rules, is a lot more flexible and is subject to opinions, unlike the teachings of the religion which is concerned with rituals and certain known things, that is not affected by the change in times.

Check this out... skip to 30mins in

Saudi in Denver?

BBC iPlayer - Storyville: 2010-2011: Leaving the Cult

It's not working, it says "currently BBC iplayer are available to play in the UK only".

It must be about forcing a woman to wear hijab or something, right?

 

[Octavia156]

I'm glad to hear that.

For your question, Islam contains some rules, some of them are not obligatory, as in nobody should force anybody to do it, and nobody should be punished for not doing it. Other rules, are concerned with the community, like Zakat. The second type of rules are the ones concerned with society. To live in an Islamic society, we should implement these rules. A lot of misunderstandings occur with people who aren't very familiar with Islam, as to which rules are obligatory and which is not. The ones who are obligatory or met with penalty if not fulfilled is basically the law of an Islamic society if an Islamic system is implemented, rules that are usually approved by the people subject to it, as they are muslims. (As for how does it apply to non-muslims living in an Islamic society, thats a little complicated, because there is more than one way to do it, so i won't explain that part now).

With the changes in our life today from back then in the time of our prophet, there are new rules that have also been made, which also are not always good, as they are the work of the scholars trying to come up with rules for these new situations, that there isn't any opinion on, because it didn't exist in the days of our prophet, and therefore its not addressed neither in the Quran nor the Hadith. So, in other words, the Islamic system is complicated and is something where opinions would play huge roles. We muslims don't see a distinction between the two, it is an entire way of life. However, implementing an Islamic system today needs some thought, because its not easy. It doesn't have to be a caliphate system in my opinion, it could be applied in a modern way, and putting in regard the rules of Islam.

So, in other words, the rules of an Islamic society, aside from a few of these rules, is a lot more flexible and is subject to opinions, unlike the teachings of the religion which is concerned with rituals and certain known things, that is not affected by the change in times.



It's not working, it says "currently BBC iplayer are available to play in the UK only".

It must be about forcing a woman to wear hijab or something, right?

Not quite the contrary!
Its about a polygamous Christian cult in America, wherein the women are owned by the men, who have many wives. They are forbidden to be educated or to watch mainstream media. They have to wear their hair off their faces and long dated matching dresses.

It was a crude camparison, but it shows that extremism and the oppression of women happens in the name of Christianity also.

In my view there is an equal amount of indoctrination, there and in Saudi.

 

[Badran]

Not quite the contrary!
Its about a polygamous Christian cult in America, wherein the women are owned by the men, who have many wives. They are forbidden to be educated or to watch mainstream media. They have to wear their hair off their faces and long dated matching dresses.

It was a crude camparison, but it shows that extremism and the oppression of women happens in the name of Christianity also.

In my view there is an equal amount of indoctrination, there and in Saudi.

Wow, i would've never expected something like that.

I'm glad you came across this, like you said it shows that this kind of extremism and mistreatment to women is not exclusive to any body.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

They are forbidden to be educated or to watch mainstream media

Who said women in Saudi are forbidden to be educated in Saudi?? The greatest female scholars can primarly be found in Saudi .

And almost every saudi girl I know has lot more to tell me than my own close friends . Stereotypes can be very injust.

 

[Octavia156]

Who said women in Saudi are forbidden to be educated in Saudi?? The greatest female scholars can primarly be found in Saudi .

And almost every saudi girl I know has lot more to tell me than my own close friends . Stereotypes can be very injust.

You are right - my error. Its Afganistan where most women are not educated.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

You are right - my error. Its Afganistan where most women are not educated.

Do you have any proof or is it just what youve heard on TV?

Media these days can be very very subjective, I guess you're already aware of that.

 

[Octavia156]

Do you have any proof or is it just what youve heard on TV?

Media these days can be very very subjective, I guess you're already aware of that.

The Principle of the school I work in told us of 14yr old girl he had taught from Afganistan who had been forbidden to be educated.
I confess that is my only first hand evidence outside of the media.

 

[beenie]

The Principle of the school I work in told us of 14yr old girl he had taught from Afganistan who had been forbidden to be educated.
I confess that is my only first hand evidence outside of the media.

yes, there are some families who refuse to educate their girls.
this is not Islam; it's twisted culture, and there is a lot of that going around.

the first words all children are taught from the Qur'an is "Iqra"="READ". it does not specify for only boys and men to read...it's a universal command.

that's why the likes of Greg Mortenson have dedicated their lives (and are welcomed, by the way) to rebuild schools and focus their education efforts on the girls of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

change cannot and will not happen overnight; we all wish for instant fixes, but there is a lot of culture and ignorance of what Islam truly says to filter through. daunting is putting it lightly.