It is quite possible for time to be 'granular' and ALSO go infinitely far into the past.
yes, a lot depends on how quantum gravity works.
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First cause of the universe.
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
It is quite possible for time to be 'granular' and ALSO go infinitely far into the past.
yes, a lot depends on how quantum gravity works.
No, it is simply how we want to use the word. Whether time goes infinitely far into the past or not is a scientific question.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
So that is based on how we think about time and not what we can observe?
No. It is simply how we define words. How do we want to use the word 'eternal'? An answer of whether something is 'eternal' will depend on what it means to be 'eternal', which is a matter of definition.
The question was whether energy is eternal. The answer depends on what is meant by that word 'eternal'. And I explained *how* it depends on the definition.
Changing definitions doesn't change the reality; only how we describe it. Pluto exists and orbits the sun whether or not we call it a planet.
From a logical standpoint, something/somethings had to have existed eternally, in order for something to exist right now.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
No, not really. Because you are confusing logic with ontology and epistemology.
Audie
Veteran Member
"Logic", that is, common sense is fine for
some things but out past normal human
experience things get moreand more weird and counter intuitive.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
It is more intellectually honest to say 'I don't know' than to say 'God did it. ' By saying 'God did it' you are introducing ANOTHER unknowable element to the answer.
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yes, I agree. But I also try to be honest and admit that I don't know that objective reality is natural. I only believe so.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh okay. So you take the rationalist rout. Not empiricist. But earlier you were speaking about evidence. What evidence were you referring to?
Audie
Veteran Member
A way bigger problem
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, to me all positive metaphysics/ontology is a way bigger problem and not just idealism.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
So you have an eternal being or eternal matter or energy ... it's still simply a belief either way...it can't be demonstrated that anything has no beginning.
So, morality is relative. Women were treated as property, and that was OK. All you had to do is to find some workarounds (aka divine laws) so that it is not too bad for the victims of such a dystopia. Instead of solving the problem at the root.
So, what did God the Almighty do? Did He fix it? Did He issue a divine command, among the thousands, that women, and anyone else, shall not, ever and ever, be the property of anyone else?
Nope. Not at all. We know He was a fan of slavery. So, He prefers to let the poor girl marry her rapist without any hope of divorce. So that he can take "care" of her for all her life. Dad got some shekels, and everything is hunky dory. Very righteous. I wonder what the Son, who is a third of God, presumedly existing even back then, though of it. He must have approved. Or He was just not paying attention.
And He is the giver of your morality, right? The giver of eternal, unchanging morality? Valid at all times?
If you think He is, fine for you. But I hope you indulge me if I prefer to have nothing to do with Him, for what concerns my moral intuitions. I would be embarassed.
Ciao
- viole
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ppp
Well-Known Member
You miss the point. Or, more likely, ignore the point. I do not believe that energy is eternal. I do not believe that it is not eternal. Energy is merely a candidate. And it is only a candidate because energy has been demonstrated to exist. When your god has been demonstrated to exist, then it will become a candidate. Until then your god is simply the product of an uninformed imagination.
Audie
Veteran Member
Simply a belief? First, energy. Mass / energy
is demonstrably real, with a sound experimental
and theoretical framework.
Second, any " god" otoh is just an emotion based
opinion about which opinion about countless
made up entities might be a real one.
It has zero evudence for its existence,
but does require violation of all known
natrural law for it to exist.
But you see this difference as just potato-
potawto?
InChrist
Free4ever
God has allowed people and cultures a lot of freedom. Having freedom has revealed the true state and condition of people’s hearts and minds. Many of the OT accounts are historical narratives which do not hide the wickedness of humanity and the harmful ways people treat one another. Human cultures have been filled with abuse, even Israel which had God’s laws. Do you think further rules about rape or not treating people like property would really change the minds of so many who only care about themselves? In the NT, we are told to love our neighbor as ourselves. How many people listen or follow through with that?
Ultimately, God is more concerned with a person’s enslavement to sin and their eternal destiny, rather than perfecting this fallen world.
“The reason the Bible talks about slavery is that slavery was a very common phenomenon in both Old Testament and New Testament times. It is only natural that the topic would come up, both from a legal stand point and simply as a common part of the history recorded in both Testaments.”
“It would appear from the Old Testament that God did not specifically condemn slavery. That may seem odd to us, as slavery is such a clear violation of basic human justice. It is not as if the Bible ever encourages slavery. You will not find a single passage of scripture which in any way whatsoever encourages any follower of God to own slaves. However, in the Old Covenant, God did allow for slavery. God allowed a number of practices under the Old Covenant which he nevertheless did not want his people to do.”
“What about the New Testament? Slavery is neither specifically allowed not specifically condemned in the New Testament. At first, knowing Jesus’ teaching, this may seem a bit surprising. Clearly Jesus would never own slaves! Nevertheless, slavery was a massive institution under Greek/Roman civilization. As many as half of all people were slaves. If Jesus had declared all slaves free under the New Covenant, it would have brought massive and unnecessary persecution down on the early church. Perhaps this
is why God chose not to specifically condemn slavery. Paul encouraged
Philemon to free his slave Onesimus. Yet, in general, he encouraged new
disciples to be willing to stay in the situation they were in when
converted. As far as God is concerned, whether one is a slave or free here on earth is not the main issue. The chief concern is whether one is a slave to sin. God, through Paul, encouraged Christian slaves to be the best possible slaves, yet to seek freedom if they could. He did not incite slaves to revolt from their masters. I am sure that a slave who was owned by a disciple would have lived under exceedingly good and fair conditions, if he or she was not freed outright.
It is worth bearing in mind that in the end, it was Christianity and the
teachings of the Bible which led to the worldwide ban on slavery. Although it is true that due to the extreme level of slavery in the time of the New Testament, God chose not to ban the practice outright, history tells us that it was the teachings of Jesus Christ which caused the downfall of the cruelest institution mankind ever invented.”
Why does God allow slavery in the Old Testament? – Evidence for Christianity
ppp
Well-Known Member
Which is just as immoral as any ruler who allows people to run around raping his subjects, so as to reveal the true state and condition of their hearts and minds.
Nor do they hide the wickedness of God, and God's laws. In fact, they revel in said wickedness.
I think that rules that do not model moral behavior are not moral rules. Rules and laws are made to structure a society to protect its members. When your rules and laws do not structure society to protect its members from rapists, then the law-makers are no better than said rapists. In the case of the Bible, that law-maker is ostensibly God.
As it was his decision to make the world imperfectly, that just damns him all the more.
It was not. At best it was the Quakers. The 99%+ rest of Christianity was fully onboard with the slave trade; fully endorsing and advocating for it. Hell, y'all wallowed it it for nearly 2000 years. Y'all didn't listen to the Quakers and abandon the slave trade until it became an economic liability. In other words, when slavery began to cost you more money than it saved.
No, I'm just pointing out what make sense to me.