• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

First Gospel?

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Peace,

Quran itself iterates stories differently and omits details in some chapters and emphasizes on other details in other chapters. They are almost always paraphrased differently though.

I believe Jesus (a) had a feign death (never really died, but it appeared like he did) and that he revealed to every Disciple a Gospel, together, they form the bigger Gospel or Gospels. They all have similarities, but different style, and just like chapters repeat the story of Musa (a) differently but paraphrasing is allowed, this is the same with the Gospels.

There is very little wrong with the Gospels in my view. It shows the true position of God's anointed kings and corrects the Torah and books after in this regard. The Christians don't realize that it contradicts much of what is contained in the Tanakh, but I believe Quran does say to overall believe in the book revealed before the Quran which is the Gospel.

I believe Gospel theme is Welayat of God's chosen inwardly and outwardly and their sacred positions. Jesus (a) might seem like he is talking about himself only, but he is talking about all God's chosen leaders in my view. I've also made this thread that might be helpful for this elaboration: Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.
 

Will Due

Member
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!

Very interesting questions and comments. Perhaps the following quoted material will provide a few insights about them:



"The New Testament records had their origin in the following circumstances:

1. The Gospel by Mark. John Mark wrote the earliest (excepting the notes of Andrew), briefest, and most simple record of Jesus’ life. He presented the Master as a minister, as man among men. Although Mark was a lad lingering about many of the scenes which he depicts, his record is in reality the Gospel according to Simon Peter. He was early associated with Peter; later with Paul. Mark wrote this record at the instigation of Peter and on the earnest petition of the church at Rome. Knowing how consistently the Master refused to write out his teachings when on earth and in the flesh, Mark, like the apostles and other leading disciples, was hesitant to put them in writing. But Peter felt the church at Rome required the assistance of such a written narrative, and Mark consented to undertake its preparation. He made many notes before Peter died in A.D. 67, and in accordance with the outline approved by Peter and for the church at Rome, he began his writing soon after Peter’s death. The Gospel was completed near the end of A.D. 68. Mark wrote entirely from his own memory and Peter’s memory. The record has since been considerably changed, numerous passages having been taken out and some later matter added at the end to replace the latter one fifth of the original Gospel, which was lost from the first manuscript before it was ever copied. This record by Mark, in conjunction with Andrew’s and Matthew’s notes, was the written basis of all subsequent Gospel narratives which sought to portray the life and teachings of Jesus.

2. The Gospel of Matthew. The so-called Gospel according to Matthew is the record of the Master’s life which was written for the edification of Jewish Christians. The author of this record constantly seeks to show in Jesus’ life that much which he did was that “it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.” Matthew’s Gospel portrays Jesus as a son of David, picturing him as showing great respect for the law and the prophets.

The Apostle Matthew did not write this Gospel. It was written by Isador, one of his disciples, who had as a help in his work not only Matthew’s personal remembrance of these events but also a certain record which the latter had made of the sayings of Jesus directly after the crucifixion. This record by Matthew was written in Aramaic; Isador wrote in Greek. There was no intent to deceive in accrediting the production to Matthew. It was the custom in those days for pupils thus to honor their teachers.

Matthew’s original record was edited and added to in A.D. 40 just before he left Jerusalem to engage in evangelistic preaching. It was a private record, the last copy having been destroyed in the burning of a Syrian monastery in A.D. 416.

Isador escaped from Jerusalem in A.D. 70 after the investment of the city by the armies of Titus, taking with him to Pella a copy of Matthew’s notes. In the year 71, while living at Pella, Isador wrote the Gospel according to Matthew. He also had with him the first four fifths of Mark’s narrative.

3. The Gospel by Luke. Luke, the physician of Antioch in Pisidia, was a gentile convert of Paul, and he wrote quite a different story of the Master’s life. He began to follow Paul and learn of the life and teachings of Jesus in A.D. 47. Luke preserves much of the “grace of the Lord Jesus Christ” in his record as he gathered up these facts from Paul and others. Luke presents the Master as “the friend of publicans and sinners.” He did not formulate his many notes into the Gospel until after Paul’s death. Luke wrote in the year 82 in Achaia. He planned three books dealing with the history of Christ and Christianity but died in A.D. 90 just before he finished the second of these works, the “Acts of the Apostles.”

As material for the compilation of his Gospel, Luke first depended upon the story of Jesus’ life as Paul had related it to him. Luke’s Gospel is, therefore, in some ways the Gospel according to Paul. But Luke had other sources of information. He not only interviewed scores of eyewitnesses to the numerous episodes of Jesus’ life which he records, but he also had with him a copy of Mark’s Gospel, that is, the first four fifths, Isador’s narrative, and a brief record made in the year A.D. 78 at Antioch by a believer named Cedes. Luke also had a mutilated and much-edited copy of some notes purported to have been made by the Apostle Andrew.

4. The Gospel of John. The Gospel according to John relates much of Jesus’ work in Judea and around Jerusalem which is not contained in the other records. This is the so-called Gospel according to John the son of Zebedee, and though John did not write it, he did inspire it. Since its first writing it has several times been edited to make it appear to have been written by John himself. When this record was made, John had the other Gospels, and he saw that much had been omitted; accordingly, in the year A.D. 101 he encouraged his associate, Nathan, a Greek Jew from Caesarea, to begin the writing. John supplied his material from memory and by reference to the three records already in existence. He had no written records of his own. The Epistle known as “First John” was written by John himself as a covering letter for the work which Nathan executed under his direction.

All these writers presented honest pictures of Jesus as they saw, remembered, or had learned of him, and as their concepts of these distant events were affected by their subsequent espousal of Paul’s theology of Christianity. And these records, imperfect as they are, have been sufficient to change the course of the history of the world for almost two thousand years."

The Urantia Book
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
Although Mark is the oldest of the four gospels as they exist now, there were other earlier documents that the gospels are based on, the primary example being that which we call Q. Each gospel is a cut and paste of more than one document. For example, the gospel of John has three authors, the oldest sections being part of what is called the Book of Signs. There are also gospels particular to different groups that we no longer have the manuscripts for, i.e. the gospel of the Nazarenes and the gospel of the Ebionites. The Gospel of Thomas (Sayings of Jesus) is dated anywhere from 60 to 250 CE.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
If you have three people reporting the same incident, or the same person's life, the reports will be slightly different and possibly contain reports that are not included by all.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If you have three people reporting the same incident, or the same person's life, the reports will be slightly different and possibly contain reports that are not included by all.
Sure.

It's also true that if you have different authors collecting all the legends about Jesus that they can find, they may use different sources.

I hope you are aware that the gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. These are simply the tradition that was added later in church history.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Although Mark is the oldest of the four gospels as they exist now, there were other earlier documents that the gospels are based on, the primary example being that which we call Q. Each gospel is a cut and paste of more than one document. For example, the gospel of John has three authors, the oldest sections being part of what is called the Book of Signs. There are also gospels particular to different groups that we no longer have the manuscripts for, i.e. the gospel of the Nazarenes and the gospel of the Ebionites. The Gospel of Thomas (Sayings of Jesus) is dated anywhere from 60 to 250 CE.
Q is still a hypothesis.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sure.

It's also true that if you have different authors collecting all the legends about Jesus that they can find, they may use different sources.

I hope you are aware that the gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. These are simply the tradition that was added later in church history.
There are things written and collected by others. I do not believe the resurrection accounts or Jesus' baptism are legends as you would say, but are truthful accounts inspired by God and allowing faithful servants to write down also over the many centuries. Let's say even the Jewish theologian and doctor Maimonides believed in the resurrection. We know as you probably do, that the Masoretes were fastidious in their copying of the texts passed on, and if one mistake is made in copying, I believe it is the custom to throw the entire scroll out. But you believe what you believe, and I believe the accounts are reliable.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Where?

My Theology and Biblical Studies lecturer disagrees.

It's often presented as the definitive theory but it's really just one hypothesis of many.
When I took my class on the New Testament, it was the leading theory. I am not personally a linguistics scholar, but I trust that they know what they are talking about. I'm aware there are some who dispute the theory.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There are things written and collected by others. I do not believe the resurrection accounts or Jesus' baptism are legends as you would say, but are truthful accounts inspired by God and allowing faithful servants to write down also over the many centuries. Let's say even the Jewish theologian and doctor Maimonides believed in the resurrection. We know as you probably do, that the Masoretes were fastidious in their copying of the texts passed on, and if one mistake is made in copying, I believe it is the custom to throw the entire scroll out. But you believe what you believe, and I believe the accounts are reliable.
I can't stop you from believing in the historicity of legends. There are people who believe Muhammad literally had a vision of Gabriel, or that the god Krishna once walked the earth as well.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Although Mark is the oldest of the four gospels as they exist now, there were other earlier documents that the gospels are based on, the primary example being that which we call Q.
Perhaps, but, regardless of your somewhat tasteless use of the royal "we," Q is purely hypothetical -- a gospels-of-the-gaps. Claiming it as fact seems more than a little pretentious.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Perhaps, but, regardless of your somewhat tasteless use of the royal "we," Q is purely hypothetical -- a gospels-of-the-gaps. Claiming it as fact seems more than a little pretentious.
Q is a strong hypothesis based on linguistic evidence. It is not the only hypothesis, but unless I'm mistaken, it is the most common hypothesis.
 

Will Due

Member
There's a very good reason why many theorize that there was a lost source document for the Gospels commonly referred to these days as Q


"Very soon after Jesus’ ascension on high, Andrew began the writing of a personal record of many of the sayings and doings of his departed Master. After Andrew’s death other copies of this private record were made and circulated freely among the early teachers of the Christian church. These informal notes of Andrew’s were subsequently edited, amended, altered, and added to until they made up a fairly consecutive narrative of the Master’s life on earth. The last of these few altered and amended copies was destroyed by fire at Alexandria about one hundred years after the original was written by the first chosen of the twelve apostles."

The Urantia Book
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
I believe Mark wrote the first Gospel. The other Gospel writers each wrote to different audiences and highlighted different perspectives, therefore it’s to be expected that each Gospel has some variations, though their major themes all harmonize.


“The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.”

 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I can't stop you from believing in the historicity of legends. There are people who believe Muhammad literally had a vision of Gabriel, or that the god Krishna once walked the earth as well.
I trust the Bible far more than any other history, especially those about God. Take care.
 
Top