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First Gospel?

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus (a) had a feign death (never really died, but it appeared like he did)
There are hints from the Gospel of Thomas about this. The priest and the lamb are different things.

(77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be] seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith YHWH of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zechariah 3:8-9

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:6

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isaiah 53:7
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
The writers/narrators of all four Gospels of NT are anonymous persons nobody knows who wrote them, it is certain that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never wrote them, never read them, and never edited them, please, right?
These are Pauline documents and present Hellenism, I understand, please, right?

Regards
 
Last edited:

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The writers/narrators of all four Gospels of NT are anonymous persons nobody knows who wrote them, it is certain that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never wrote them, never read them, and never edited them, please, right?
These are Pauline documents and present Hellenism, I understand, please, right?

Regards
all the gospels have more than one source spliced together. The leading theory is that the gospel of Mark has two sources, one which is referred to as Q, and one other.

No, Paul wrote none of the gospels. But they were written by Christians that were following the Pauline school of Christianity. You can tell, because they go out of their way to divorce the faith from the Jews (something that i.e. the Nazarenes would never have done).
 

justaguy313

Active Member
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
Paul never met Jesus and neither did Luke. Their target audience were gentiles who spoke greek.

The year is roughly 36 AD, the place Jerusalem, this is the holy city where the teachings of
Christ once rang out into the air but now just a few years after the crucifixion, the winds have
changed direction and some people are on a hunt for Christian blood. An angry mob zeroes in on
a godly man by the name of Stephen drags him out of the city and begins to stone him. They lay
their coats in front of a young man called Saul of Tarsus who fully consented to Stephen’s death
and later admitted.
“ And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and
guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.”
~ Act 22:20

This story alone is shocking enough but this was not the only time Saul got his hands dirty. Saul
was born into a strict Jewish family and spent his youth studying under the famous Rabbi

Gamaliel the man who trained him as a Pharisee. These are the same Pharisees whom Jesus
referred to as Vipers and sons of the devil. Saul’s zeal for the law led him to become an
inquisitor of the Jerusalem temples priesthood. Saul was a blood hound and admitted to
mercilessly chasing and killing many Christians. According to the book of Acts, Saul was:
“Still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples”

~ Acts 9:1

When he had a transformative experience on the road to Damacus, a vision of the resurrected
Jesus. It was that experience which allegedly changed everything, Saul became Paul and
declared himself a freshly converted apostle of Christ but there is a problem with this story, Paul
can’t quite get the details straight. It is considered a red flag when a person can’t keep their story
straight when detectives work to solve a crime they test witnesses on the consistency of their
accounts if the story keeps changing, suspicions arise. You might assume that a vision of Jesus
would be memorable enough to stick in someone’s memory but the so-called Apostle Paul tells
three different versions of his operation on the road to Damacus recorded in the book of Acts. In
Acts chapter 9 verse 7 we find one account where Paul claims that his travel companions did not
see Jesus but heard his voice. And in Acts chapter 22 verse 9 we find another version of the story
they:
“Saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me”

~ Acts 22:9

In one version Paul is blinded for three days in another he makes no mention of such a thing. We
are left wondering which version should we believe but perhaps a more important question to ask
is why does this all matter? It matters because the entire validity of Paul as a messenger hinges
on this story. This is the single proof he used to convince people to take him seriously as a
messenger from God having never met Jesus in the flesh, this is all he has to go on and it just so
happens that it cannot be verified by anybody. There is no mention of Paul in the Gospels by
Jesus or anyone else for that matter nobody gives Paul the title of apostle other than Paul himself.
So we have to ask these questions was Paul a man who saw the error in his ways and turned his
life around or did he carry out his original agenda utilizing a different strategy destroying the
Christian faith from within. In any case one thing is certain, Paul’s claimed to Apostleship
directly contradicts what Jesus taught. Throughout his ministry, Jesus had many disciples, at one
he amassed followers in the thousands but there was always an inner circle of 12 men
handpicked by Jesus. That number twelve was no accident there was a specific purpose behind it.
Talking about his second coming Jesus said:

“Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the son of man sits on his glorious throne,
you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

~ Matthew 19:28

These words demonstrate just how important the sacred number twelve is. How could 11 or 13
apostles judge twelve tribes? The disciples themselves understood the significance of this
number. After Jesus left them, the remaining 11 apostles set out to replace the fallen one from
among them Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus. Praying for divine guidance the men drew lots
and in the end they reported that God chose Matthias to be the 12 th disciple. There was one
important criteria for the selection. Therefore it is necessary to choose
“… one of the man who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among
us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us.”

~ Acts 1:21-22

So imagine the confusion of the 12 disciples when years later Paul came along and inserted
himself into the equation as the thirteen disciple. Paul a man who never met Jesus certainly
didn’t qualify to be one of them but that didn’t stop Paul from making some dramatic changes to
the religion of Jesus and the early Christians did not consider Paul to be an authority in the same
right as the 12. One of the most notable new concepts which Paul brought to Christianity was the
abolishment of the Old Testament law. Claiming to speak on behalf of Christ, Paul said:
“ For sin shall no longer be your Master, because you are not under the law, but under

grace.”
~ Roman 6:14

He claimed that:
“ Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written

“Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole””

~ Galatians 3:13

Basically, Paul argued that when Jesus died so too did the law. The old covenant between God
and man was overturned in favor of a new one. One by which all sins are forgiven of the one
who simply says I believe. There is just one major problem with Paul’s logic though. According
to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus appeared to the twelve after the crucifixion saying this:
“ Therefore go and make disciples of all nations… and teaching them to obey everything I

have commanded you.”
~ Matthew 28:19-20

And Jesus clearly commanded them to keep the commandments:
“ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to

fulfill them…”
~ Matthew 5:17

Jesus was a reformer. His mission was to bring things back to the old ways of theology. He came
to guide people back to the religion of God. Jesus the long-awaited Jewish Messiah affirmed the
message of the Hebrew prophets before him. He adhered to the Jewish law and never once
indicated that the law of the Old Testament prophets would or should be abolished. In fact he
said:
“ It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of

the law.”
~ Luke 16:17

So why did Paul come out and teach the opposite just as Jesus said:
“…If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

~ Matthew 19:17

Paul said:
“… No one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law…”

~ Roman 3:20

It simply couldn’t make sense unless Paul had another agenda. Paul initially preached to people
of his same religious background the Jews but when he found that he could not convince many
that Jesus was divine, he went outside of Israel to the Gentiles but once again he faced difficulty.
The Gentiles who were open to accepting Christ were not observers of Jewish Law. Their food
wasn’t kosher but the biggest obstacle Paul faced with the Gentiles was the circumcision law the
covenant between God and believers dating back to Prophet Abraham. At first Paul encouraged
Gentile converts to follow the law. He even had his companion Timothy circumsized as
confirmed in acts 16 but somewhere along the way he changed his tune. The law was an obstacle
standing in his way so he cast it aside. Jesus said follow the law down to the letter but Paul said
the exact opposite. Not only did he remove its obligation, he went so far as to call it harmful:
“ I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at
all…You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have

fallen away from grace.”
~ Galatians 5:2-4

Where was he getting this from? It certainly wasn’t a man who Jesus named as his successor,
Simon Peter. When Jesus knew he wouldn’t be around much longer. He handed the keys of the
kingdom to his successor Simon Peter stating:
“ And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever
you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed

in heaven.
~ Matthew 16:18-19

Although Jesus clearly designated a shepherd for his flock to follow in Peter, Paul argued that he
was given a new gospel to spread, he said:
“And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.”

~ 2 Timothy 1:11

You might imagine that Paul as a follower of Christ would have jumped at the chance to learn
from the twelve men who lived with and learned from Jesus in the flesh but that’s not what Paul
did. It was a full decade after Jesus’s death that Paul first met Peter in Jerusalem then he went out
preaching and teaching his own gospel in Asia Minor for another ten years before making a
return trip to Jerusalem around 50 AD. It was only then 20 years after the crucifixion that Paul
met the rest of the Apostles for the first time. Paul did not preach the same thing as the Twelve
Apostles and there was constant friction between him and the Jerusalem church about one issue
in particular the law. Tensions eventually boiled over and cause Peter and Paul to come to blows.
When Peter visited Antioch he clashed with Paul over whether or not Gentile Christians needed
to uphold the law. We only get to hear Paul’s side of the story of course but if we take his epistle
at its word the two men came to an agreement. Paul would go forth as an apostle to the Gentiles
while Peter would preach to the circumcised but there is a problem there. The agreement which
Paul speaks of contradicts the book of Acts which states that Peter not Paul was chosen by God
to minister to the Gentiles.
 

justaguy313

Active Member
In Acts chapter 15 verse 7 Peter said:


“Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles

might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.”

~ Acts 15:7

Nevertheless, Paul claimed to have a different gospel than Peter and the other apostles, the
gospel of the uncircumcised a gospel which he

“Didn’t receive from any man nor was he taught it”

~Galatians 1:12

His gospel came purely from revelation and therefore couldn’t be verified by anyone as truthful
and yet Paul’s new gospel spilt the religion of Christianity into two distinct confessions. One
rooted in Judaism and a version tailored for the Gentiles. Concluding this chapter of Galatians,
Paul argues that his way is the correct way because eventhough Jesus said:
“ Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the

one who does the will of my Father…”

~ Matthew 7:21
Paul taught that salvation comes not by works but by faith alone:
“ For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with
Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith
in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.”

~ Galatians 2:19-21

Paul’s depiction of Jesus as a divine Saviour perfectly suited the Gentiles who disliked the law
and adored stories of myth. People from a polytheistic culture who regarded holy figures as
deities. Perhaps this explains the origin of a controversial claim how Jesus became God. Today
virtually all Christians accept Jesus as the human embodiment of God one part of the Holy
Trinity but it wasn’t always like that. The early Christians were not in agreement on this point. In
fact, up until the 4 th century Christians fell into two camps, those who believed Jesus to be a
divine messenger of God and those who believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully God.
How these radically different understandings of Jesus evolve? Perhaps the best way to solve this
mystery is to take a look at the words of Jesus. Did Jesus ever call himself God? The answer not
even once. Jesus said there is only one God and it isn’t him. He famously asked:

“ Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone.”

~ Mark 10:18
And Jesus warned against those who deified him saying:
“ But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men ”

~ Matthew 15:9

He also differentiates himself from God numerous times throughout the Bible. In the book of
John Jesus says:

“ By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not

to please myself but him who sent me.”

~ John 5:30

And he also says:
“ For I did not speak on my own, but the father who sent me commanded me to say all that I

have spoken.”
~ John 12:49

If Jesus never called himself God, how did he become known as God? The Pauline epistles are
sprinkled with statements conflating Jesus with God. Paul refer to
“Christ, who is God over all”
in Romans Chapter 9 verse 5

and in Titus chapter 2 verse 13:
“ Our God and Savior Jesus”

It seems like a blatant contradiction but perhaps it suited Paul’s grand agenda to misguide
people. If people are worshipping Jesus as God, they are associating others with him
undercutting the very foundation of monotheism. Not only did he called Christ God, he
revamped Christ’s image. If Jesus was God he couldn’t be seen as an ordinary man. He had to be
seen as celibate. If you know anything about Jesus today it’s that Jesus unlike all the messengers
before and after him was supposedly celibate. But what exactly do the scriptures say? The
answer is absolutely nothing. The Gospels never specify whether Jesus was married or
unmarried, the idea of celibacy was somehow superior to marriage came entirely from Paul in 1
Corinthians chapter 7 verse 7 Paul wrote:

“ I wish all were single just as I am.”
~ 1 Corinthians 7:7
To help prevent the desire to be married Paul said:

“It is good that a man should not touch a woman.”

~ 1 Corinthians 7:1

Paul sexual asceticism came to shape and color the Christian faith as we know it today celibacy
is practiced by Roman Catholic priests and nuns but where did Paul get this stance from? It
certainly wasn’t Jesus because as Paul admitted himself:
“ I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is

trustworthy.”
~ 1 Corinthians 7:25

Had Jesus been celibate, Paul would certainly have invoked him as an example when arguing for
celibacy but he doesn’t. Never once does Paul argue that Christians should be celibate because
Jesus was celibate. For one we know that Jesus’s apostles were married. In fact, Jesus famously
resurrected Simon Peter mother-in-law from the dead as recorded in the Gospels and the Gospel
of Matthew records Jesus affirming the sanctity of marriage quoting Old Testament scripture
saying:
“ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and
said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the
two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has

joined together, let man not separate.”

~ Matthew 19:4-6
 

justaguy313

Active Member
Despite what Jesus said Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians said that all unmarried people
should not seek to get married. Why might Paul want to spread this doctrine of celibacy. What
would it mean for the future of Christianity. Well if marriages stop so to do children.
Dramatically reducing the number of Christians born into the world. Today we might call Paul a
eugenicist but he took himself as an example of the celibate life. He never married a woman, a
fact which is so shocking once we hear what Paul had to say about the status of women. Jewish
culture in the first century was decidedly patriarchal but Jesus came along and refused to treat
women as inferior. The Gospels writers each testified that Jesus treated women with respect in
opposition to the cultural norms. He spoke to women in public, he healed women, he allowed
women to sit at his feet and learn from him and we know from the Gospel of Luke that Jesus
journeyed from village to village with a caravan including female disciples. There was Mary
called Magdalene, Susanna and many others. These women were helping to support them out of
their own means. The Gospel of Mark states that the women who were present at crucifixion had
followed him when he was in Galilee and ministered to him. Given that Jewish women at this
time were not to learn the scriptures or even leave their households. Jesus’s message was
distinctly different in liberating for women. So it stands to reason that any true apostle of Jesus
would also embrace female leadership. That’s not what Paul did at all. Unlike Jesus, Paul said
that women shall remain silent in his epistle to the Corinthians Paul says:

“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to
subject themselves, Just as the law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their
own husband at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.”

~ 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 ~

And Paul also says:
“ I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”

~ 1 Timothy 2:12~

But doesn’t this fly in the face of Jesus’s actions? Three days after the crucifixion when Jesus
makes his comeback, he doesn’t appear first to Peter or even to one of the other twelve men, he
appears to a woman Mary Magdalene and sends her on a mission. He says
“Do not hold on to me for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers
and tell them…” Mary (Magdalene) went to the disciples with the news: “ I have seen the

Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.”

~ John 20:17-18~

For this reason Mary is called the Apostle to the apostles. But Paul tried to strip her of this honor
and erase her important role from history. In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul said explicitly that
Jesus appeared first to Peter then to the 12 apostles then to 500 people and finally to Paul
himself. He makes no mention of Mary Magdalene but this is only one example of Paul’s
questionable rulings on the right of women which modern Christians may take issues with. Paul
also demanded that women cover their heads with a veil. Today the hijab or veil is viewed as an
Islamic tradition but it did not originate with the religion of Islam. It traces back to the words of
the so called apostle Paul who explained that women must cover their hair while praying not for
the purpose of modesty but because according to Paul, women are inferior to men. In 1
Corinthians Paul wrote:
“… I want you realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is
man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered
dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered
dishonors her head. It is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover
her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have
her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover
his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For a man
did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but

woman for man.”
~ 1 Corinthians 11:3-9 ~

Althought Jesus never said anything along these lines, the Roman Catholic Church adopted
Paul’s decree. The second Catholic Pope Linus a disciple of Paul made head coverings for
women a mandatory practice in the year 70 AD and it remained an official ruling in the Catholic
code of law up until 1983 that women however shall have a covered head and be modestly
dressed especially when they approached the table of the Lord. All of this just goes to show how
far Christianity deviated from the essence of Jesus’s true message. Over time Paul’s doctrine has
eclipsed the words of Jesus to such an extent that Paul is perhaps the most influential person in
the history of Western civilization. We are all cultural heirs of Paul. In contrast, Jesus the Jewish
Messiah who sought to establish the kingdom of God on earth has been largely lost to our
culture. This world has many pitfalls which Jesus warned about, among them love of money and
power. For Jesus, money and it’s corrupting a lure had no place in religion. He taught his
disciples to:
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely

give.
~ Matthew 10:8~

In other words, do not accept payment for preaching and teaching but Paul on the other hand said
that people should pay for the word of God.
“In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the Gospel should receive

their living from the Gospel.”
~ 1 Corinthians 9:14 ~

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,

'The earliest statement we have comes from the early second-century historian Papias, who quotes a first-century figure known as “John the Presbyter” or “John the Elder” (Greek, presbuteros = “elder”). This figure was a disciple of Jesus. He is sometimes identified with John son of Zebedee, but a careful reading of Papias indicates that he was a separate individual (see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, chs. 2, 9, 16).

According to John the Presbyter, “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he [Peter] remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he [Mark] neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord’s discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the things which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely” (Eusebius, Church History 3:39:15).

Since John the Presbyter is a first-century source and a witness of Jesus’ ministry, his testimony regarding Mark’s composition has great weight.'



Which do you prefer?

Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?

Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?

Go!
Nobody really knows the authorship of the books.

Its seem to be a permanent mystery lost to time.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,
I expect we will share our take on this. Scholars say that Mark is the oldest of the four gospels. However, Mark is actually a conglomeration of two different authors, the author who put Mark together, and an earlier source that is nameless saved its designation as Q.

Like all the gospels, Mark is simply a collection of available legends about Jesus. The author makes no attempt to sort out what is legend from what is history.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It is the leading theory.

Use the term "theory however you wish. The fact remains that the Q source is an hypothesis, not a fact.

The existence of the "minor agreements" within the two-source hypothesis has raised serious concerns. These minor agreements are those points where Matthew and Luke agree against or beyond Mark precisely within their Marcan verses (for example, the mocking question at the beating of Jesus, "Who is it that struck you?",[31] found in both Matthew and Luke but not in Mark, although this "minor agreement" falls outside the usually accepted range of Q). The "minor agreements" call into question the proposition that Matthew and Luke knew Mark but not each other, e.g. Luke might have indeed been following Matthew, or at least a Matthew-like source. Peabody and McNicol argue that until a reasonable explanation is found the two-source hypothesis is not viable.[32] [source]​

New Testament scholar James Edwards argues that the existence of a treasured sayings document in circulation going unmentioned by early Church Fathers remains one of the great conundrums of modern Biblical scholarship.[7] Pier Franco Beatrice argues that until these issues are resolved, Q will remain in doubt.[33] [source]​

A question: have you ever read Goodacre?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The writers/narrators of all four Gospels of NT are anonymous persons nobody knows who wrote them, it is certain that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never wrote them, never read them, and never edited them, please, right?
These are Pauline documents and present Hellenism, I understand, please, right?
Right?

Regards
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Who wrote first, Mark, Matthew or Luke?
Hi Rival, I've been extremely busy with running a medical practice and with the change in the layout of the forum, religious forum dropped off the radar for a while.

This is a particularly interesting thread and having briefly considered some of the issues wonder if its possible for any consensus on the matter. The arguments for Mark being the first seems more compelling from what is presented on tbis thread.
Is Mark really Peter's memories as put down by a scribe? As here,
Given its based on one of the earliest documents available, it seems plausible.
Which do you prefer?
Mark
Does Luke have access to a source unknown to the others?
It is possible and would help explain why there is less shared material with Mark as compared to Mark and Matthew.
Why does Mark contain material not found in Matt or Luke if you believe both copied Mark?
It makes sense that all the authors of the synoptics would use multiple sources. How many essays at university that reflect depth of thought and well composed rely on a single source?

Great thread.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member

First Gospel?

It has little to no significance, I understand, as to (1) which one of the four anonymous "Gospels",(2) none of them by an eye witness of Jesus Crucifixion, was written first (3)as all of them were picked up from many gospels (about forty of them),(4) without assigning any reasons by the Hellenist -Paulines and that (5)appeared after the Epistles that shows (6)they and their Hellenist-Church was already established and they had(7)
a hidden agenda to accomplish for which they(8) "doctored" them profusely then and (9) even afterwards, please, right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member

First Gospel?

Very interesting questions and comments. Perhaps the following quoted material will provide a few insights about them:



"The New Testament records had their origin in the following circumstances:

1. The Gospel by Mark. John Mark wrote the earliest (excepting the notes of Andrew), briefest, and most simple record of Jesus’ life. He presented the Master as a minister, as man among men. Although Mark was a lad lingering about many of the scenes which he depicts, his record is in reality the Gospel according to Simon Peter. He was early associated with Peter; later with Paul. Mark wrote this record at the instigation of Peter and on the earnest petition of the church at Rome. Knowing how consistently the Master refused to write out his teachings when on earth and in the flesh, Mark, like the apostles and other leading disciples, was hesitant to put them in writing. But Peter felt the church at Rome required the assistance of such a written narrative, and Mark consented to undertake its preparation. He made many notes before Peter died in A.D. 67, and in accordance with the outline approved by Peter and for the church at Rome, he began his writing soon after Peter’s death. The Gospel was completed near the end of A.D. 68. Mark wrote entirely from his own memory and Peter’s memory. The record has since been considerably changed, numerous passages having been taken out and some later matter added at the end to replace the latter one fifth of the original Gospel, which was lost from the first manuscript before it was ever copied. This record by Mark, in conjunction with Andrew’s and Matthew’s notes, was the written basis of all subsequent Gospel narratives which sought to portray the life and teachings of Jesus.

2. The Gospel of Matthew. The so-called Gospel according to Matthew is the record of the Master’s life which was written for the edification of Jewish Christians. The author of this record constantly seeks to show in Jesus’ life that much which he did was that “it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.” Matthew’s Gospel portrays Jesus as a son of David, picturing him as showing great respect for the law and the prophets.

The Apostle Matthew did not write this Gospel. It was written by Isador, one of his disciples, who had as a help in his work not only Matthew’s personal remembrance of these events but also a certain record which the latter had made of the sayings of Jesus directly after the crucifixion. This record by Matthew was written in Aramaic; Isador wrote in Greek. There was no intent to deceive in accrediting the production to Matthew. It was the custom in those days for pupils thus to honor their teachers.

Matthew’s original record was edited and added to in A.D. 40 just before he left Jerusalem to engage in evangelistic preaching. It was a private record, the last copy having been destroyed in the burning of a Syrian monastery in A.D. 416.

Isador escaped from Jerusalem in A.D. 70 after the investment of the city by the armies of Titus, taking with him to Pella a copy of Matthew’s notes. In the year 71, while living at Pella, Isador wrote the Gospel according to Matthew. He also had with him the first four fifths of Mark’s narrative.

3. The Gospel by Luke. Luke, the physician of Antioch in Pisidia, was a gentile convert of Paul, and he wrote quite a different story of the Master’s life. He began to follow Paul and learn of the life and teachings of Jesus in A.D. 47. Luke preserves much of the “grace of the Lord Jesus Christ” in his record as he gathered up these facts from Paul and others. Luke presents the Master as “the friend of publicans and sinners.” He did not formulate his many notes into the Gospel until after Paul’s death. Luke wrote in the year 82 in Achaia. He planned three books dealing with the history of Christ and Christianity but died in A.D. 90 just before he finished the second of these works, the “Acts of the Apostles.”

As material for the compilation of his Gospel, Luke first depended upon the story of Jesus’ life as Paul had related it to him. Luke’s Gospel is, therefore, in some ways the Gospel according to Paul. But Luke had other sources of information. He not only interviewed scores of eyewitnesses to the numerous episodes of Jesus’ life which he records, but he also had with him a copy of Mark’s Gospel, that is, the first four fifths, Isador’s narrative, and a brief record made in the year A.D. 78 at Antioch by a believer named Cedes. Luke also had a mutilated and much-edited copy of some notes purported to have been made by the Apostle Andrew.

4. The Gospel of John. The Gospel according to John relates much of Jesus’ work in Judea and around Jerusalem which is not contained in the other records. This is the so-called Gospel according to John the son of Zebedee, and though John did not write it, he did inspire it. Since its first writing it has several times been edited to make it appear to have been written by John himself. When this record was made, John had the other Gospels, and he saw that much had been omitted; accordingly, in the year A.D. 101 he encouraged his associate, Nathan, a Greek Jew from Caesarea, to begin the writing. John supplied his material from memory and by reference to the three records already in existence. He had no written records of his own. The Epistle known as “First John” was written by John himself as a covering letter for the work which Nathan executed under his direction.

All these writers presented honest pictures of Jesus as they saw, remembered, or had learned of him, and as their concepts of these distant events were affected by their subsequent espousal of Paul’s theology of Christianity. And these records, imperfect as they are, have been sufficient to change the course of the history of the world for almost two thousand years."

The Urantia Book
And these records, imperfect as they are, have been sufficient to change the course of the history of the world for almost two thousand years.
Under influence of Paul-the Antichrist (together with his associates and the Church) hiding the truthful Gospel of Yeshua, right?

Regards
 
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