Fixing the scripture ...

[savagewind]

@PeteC-UK I think that scripture is good for learning the language of the spirit. How can a person listen to it if he does not know what the words mean?

 

[savagewind]

Exactly.... Though dogma does not define a person. A person might adhere to a dogma or not, but that confers nothing beneficial or harmful in itself.

Some churchess have no dogma... see the following...http://www.nspresbyterian.org/pages/faith.htm
This particular local Chuch was established in Comber by my family, and built by them on their land.
At the time the non subscribing Presbyterian church had an important presence in Northern Ireland, and was Unitarian in character.

I disagree that leaning on wrong dogma does no harm.

What a person believes is where a person is heading. Is this the truth?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I disagree that leaning on wrong dogma does no harm.

What a person believes is where a person is heading. Is this the truth?

In my opinion not so. If that were the case a majority of the faithful would fall outside God's love.
That is clearly not the case, as God's love is universal to everyone.

No one is "saved" through what they believe.
Though this puts the whole salvation theology in doubt.
I believe in a universal salvation. as we all have the opportunity to repent either in this world or the next.
From that you will understand that I do not believe in a physical hell.
But this is all far from the OP.

 

[savagewind]

In my opinion not so. If that were the case a majority of the faithful would fall outside God's love.
That is clearly not the case, as God's love is universal to everyone.

Except that a person can't be "faithful" while believing against the truth, Jesus Christ. Is Jesus not the truth? The Bible says he is.

No one is "saved" through what they believe.

Of course not! But it is possible to be condemned by what you believe. Matthew 12:37

Though this puts the whole salvation theology in doubt.

Scepticism is a good thing imo.

I believe in a universal salvation. as we all have the opportunity to repent either in this world or the next.

I think you mean that you believe everyone will accept salvation. Opportunity and acceptance are two different things.

From that you will understand that I do not believe in a physical hell.
But this is all far from the OP.

I agree God has not created a place of torture for dead people.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think you mean that you believe everyone will accept salvation. Opportunity and acceptance are two different things.
e.

if there is an offer of salvation there is a choice....however what could the alternative be?
I worry about the whole concept of salvation, or that it could be earned.
I prefer to think of it as returning to God, whatever that might entail.

 

[savagewind]

if there is an offer of salvation there is a choice....however what could the alternative be?
I worry about the whole concept of salvation, or that it could be earned.
I prefer to think of it as returning to God, whatever that might entail.

You say there will be a universal salvation.

I believe in a universal salvation. as we all have the opportunity to repent either in this world or the next.

Does it mean that everyone will be saved or can be saved?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You say there will be a universal salvation.
Does it mean that everyone will be saved or can be saved?

I am sure salvation and saved are the wrong concepts, though i use the words out of convenience.
what do we need to be saved from?
certainly not from original sin?
we are responsible for our own sin.

instead of salvation...think of repentance forgiveness and returning to God.
every one who repents will do so, with their sins expunged.
perhaps those who refuse to repent, have an oportunity at a later time. Perhaps purgatory has some meaning?

 

[savagewind]

I am sure salvation and saved are the wrong concepts, though i use the words out of convenience.
what do we need to be saved from?
certainly not from original sin?
we are responsible for our own sin.

instead of salvation...think of repentance forgiveness and returning to God.
every one who repents will do so, with their sins expunged.
perhaps those who refuse to repent, have an oportunity at a later time. Perhaps purgatory has some meaning?

I agree with you. Universal salvation I understand is that everyone will go happy with God. I do not believe that because then what good is law and love?

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Savage;

I think that scripture is good for learning the language of the spirit. How can a person listen to it if he does not know what the words mean?

Exactly why Christ advised, find this INNER guide FIRST He said - for we do know what the words mean here AT THE SURFACE - but as He told us directly - scripture has MANY LAYERS OF UNDERSTANDING - He spoke PARABLES to the masses - and spoke clearly to those with ears to hear...As Thomas said to the rest when asked about these deeper truths, he replied - if I reveal my truth, you could not comprehend it and it would consume your mind - fire comes from words is how he put it - EMOTION - and they would be consumed by it - and then,in reaction to this confusion, Thomas said the rest would pick up rocks to kill him for his truth - ANGER comes form SELF DECEPTION....Therefore Christ spoke parables for the masses - and directly to those who are ready to listen..

So to know TRUTH then, He is saying we must first quell our knee jerk, emotional mind - THIS mind HERE - reading writing posts and REACTING to the world out there - must be put aside - tamed - MENDED...we must step back from this purely ILLUSIONARY, ever changing little self at the SURFACE mind - dont let IT guide us at all - but instead we should invoke this OTHER Presence - the Holy Ghost - and allow IT to guide always....

Remember ALL things flow from a Divine MIND - and Christ IS that mind made flesh...never forget...He explains OUR comparison, how WE actually operate...All about the DIVIDED and illusionary mortal mind, and its inherant IGNORANCE of self and eternal circumstance...THIS is the essence of SIN itself, as I shall explain in a moment...This broken divided mortal mind is INCAPABLE of holding truth of SELF - because it is full already - of "truth from another" external source - ALWAYS full to capacity as the world constantly bombard us - do we see..??...This is WHY He says things like - HATE your parents - have no part of their truths - this is WHY He says - quit the temple / religion - no more useless prayers,.rituals, bowing down begging sacrifices - USELSSS and a direct HINDERANCE He said filling the mind continously with errors.......Instead - He said shun and avoid the world AT FIRST - until this communion is readily present, for without its guidance the world out there WILL DEFINATELY lead us astray - the blind lead the blind here yes..?..we all fall into the hole....He said this...Fair upfront warning for our well being...

So - no more religion He said - no scripture - EMPTY MIND - go alone He said, find somewhere to close off from the world and do not let it intrude....Seek WITHIN the Self - for a secret and silent void empty place - I tell you directly YES it does exist - actually two such voids exist within our own mind, and it is the second deeper one we seek - the first is largely unimportant, though I tell you it here so that if any EARNESTLY want to try they will have a good notion and not stop before the effort is complete - we must empty this surface mind by withdrawng it from the world - take it down and allow it to become calm - watch the Self - quell emotional response - you know - MEDITATE..Do this OFTEN - seek it ALWAYS He advised - the process goes - from experience - that first we encounter such a void empty place deep within...it is HARD to get too, as any earnest meditator will attest - but it IS there, real legitimate, this first is well documented..During the process, we have ACTUALLY taken the FOCUS of the mind normally here at the surface - and made it encounter the mind we call SUBCONSCIOUS - and see then the changes as this occurs and is REPEATED unitl it becomes stable and ever present connection...

This first void, literally LINKS the DIVIDED mortal mid - it MENDS IT - and now this focus HERE reading writing posts - has FULL and immediate access to literally EVERYTHING the person has EVER experienced....I tell you it is AMAZING and it is the start of a whole body change,physical emotional mental RE BIRTH !! He showed us how to mend this divide within - and it then "opens a gate" - the WIDE gate of the upper mind and the outer world is channeled down - funneled into this NARROW Gate He tells us to seek - NARROW because we MUST pull our conscious self out of the big wide world out there and squeeze the Self down into literal NOTHINGNESS - it allows an entirely new and other mode of greater Self perception, as broken mind merges and becomes Whole - thus mind here, as the process unfolds and takes hold, without any effort at all - has information delivered directly and WHOLLY from first the ENTIRE mortal mind we call subconscious memory - and later, this communion progresses much much deeper - in and through the TRUE Gateway, to allow the Soul to LEAVE THE BODY and encounter the true spiritual realms...

When TWO make PEACE within one HOUSE they may tell even a mountain to move - that mountain WILL MOVE....Angels and Prophets will come to you and give you the truth of things you seek - His PROMISES as this Holy Ghost phenomena comes to Be...we MUST undertake this process of Self unification - be BORN AGAIN - in the manner HE prescribed - mend the mind and open the Gate - thus INVITING the Divine - ACTIVELY seeking it always..it is the only source of world truth to trust He said clearly..

Seek a SILENT and EMPTY state within - await the Divine - for He said right at the start - my Father is a MIND that calls forth Creation form "nowhere and no time" - the Trinity come forth in VOID and empty SILENCE He said - and so INTO THAT STATE we must take this mortal Self if we wish to TRULY and DIRECTLY encouinter them..

SIN and SALVATION...?...So - plain modern English Folks - what did He mean..?...SIN - is originally a MILITARY term - it is a label for a "foot soldier" or more apt, cannon fodder - low rank disposable, easily replaced...It comes from an ARCHERY term - as to be an elite archer in an army, was SAFE, secure, high ranking, SKILLFUL position - compared to said foot soldier cannon fodder front line disposable troop...See..?....NOBODY wanted to be a sinner...

So - you joined the army - nearly always FORCED of course - and they TEST your skill....Good with a bow - become ELITE - not so good - become average archer, still high rank - BUT - if you could not HIT THE TARGET - you became that low LOW status bottom of them all...See...?......SIN means actually TO MISS THE TARGET - and more importantly in this spiritual context - it is inferred in the meaning that the REASON for such a failure, is because the mind is preoccupied - to sin then - is to fail because you didnt give it your FULL ATTENTION !!!!

Let it sink in deep......we are told we are "born into sin" wihout any hope of anything better - unless we follow these religious types who promise it...But look - sin - is just a LACK OF MIND - an IGNORANCE of mind - a lack of FOCUS within the Self....Do we begin to see now - why and HOW CHRIST ALONE - could SAVE us from that inherant condition - by this method of INVOKING this OTHER Self - a WHOLE undivided MIND that is then OUR FULL ATTENTION focused where ever we choose to apply it...Sin - BROKEN MIND and ITS guidance in the world out there - - SALAVATION - WHOLE MIND, new Self with complete Self understanding, and crucially - in THAT STATE ALONE - able to FREELY access OTHER dimensions to our ETERNAL existance....Divine Presence invited - mortal Self encounters the Soul, allows the Soul to have president, authority HERE in the mortal world, directly experiences its FULL NATURE beyond the illusions of the broken mind - and so LOOK - best of all - upon mortal death - the mind already KNOWS Who and What it is ETERNALLY - the change within brings it to everyday life and so it is EXPERIENCED directly - LIVING truth - GNOSIS - thus, finally free from the mortal coil, the Soul claims its full status and BECOMES ETERNAL...Thus THROUGH the teaching of Christ alone - we ARE SAVED - and gain immortal life just as He PROMISES. Mend the broken mind we are born and forced into first - above all things KNOW THY SELF.....As always - for those with ears to hear..

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I agree with you. Universal salvation I understand is that everyone will go happy with God. I do not believe that because then what good is law and love?

We are not supposed to love in expectation of a reward.
we should love because God loves us.

The law and Jesus examples are not to punish but to lead. We follow through love.
The Idea that we only do things through the fear of punishment. Is disproved even at a human level.

 

[savagewind]

We are not supposed to love in expectation of a reward.
we should love because God loves us.

The law and Jesus examples are not to punish but to lead. We follow through love.
The Idea that we only do things through the fear of punishment. Is disproved even at a human level.

What? You have switched the equation. I agree with you that love is for love's sake. OK?

If everyone is saved the same way, then I do not have to obey the law if I do not want to and I will end up the same as those who struggle to love and obey.. Is that right?

If I do not work the will of God I will have the same reward as those who work hard for the Lord. Is that what you teach in your church?

Everything should end the same whether people obey God or not. ?

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

The religious taught kind of truth is often amusing isnt it..?... All manner of these little annoying questions arise as contradiction follows error...lol...In the original gospels, did you know, His statements are often accompanied with laughter..?...At our naivete and futile struggle - He is greatly amused by us...but I have to say - the living of the lesser experience as "not Christ" - this here is not so amusing really is it..?....Religious spiritual confusion is the core of all our societal problems - so it really would be helpful if we actually had HIS truth rather than these countlss other mortal versions....The naivete WOULD be amusing too - to my mind - except its the results often bring calamity,war, injustice and death on the global scale...Still - He DID warn us all that would be done IN His name - but not necasarily by those who Follow His Way..

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What? You have switched the equation. I agree with you that love is for love's sake. OK?

If everyone is saved the same way, then I do not have to obey the law if I do not want to and I will end up the same as those who struggle to love and obey.. Is that right?

If I do not work the will of God I will have the same reward as those who work hard for the Lord. Is that what you teach in your church?

Everything should end the same whether people obey God or not. ?

some thinkers in the church have and do think this way. However it is not what the church teaches.
your questions show that you are still basing your thinking on rewards and punishments.

put it another way...death and a return to God is inevitable.
however our role when we return, is not necessarily equal...some might have proved better suited in this life to one role than another in the next. What those roles might be are totally unknown. God may chose some to return and fulfill a different role.

"All shall be well, and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.” Julian of Norwich.

In other words God's will will be done and it will be well.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

"And in this he showed me a little thing, the quantity of a hazel nut, lying in the palm of my hand, as it seemed. And it was as round as any ball. I looked upon it with the eye of my understanding, and thought, ‘What may this be?’ And it was answered generally thus, ‘It is all that is made.’ I marveled how it might last, for I thought it might suddenly have fallen to nothing for littleness. And I was answered in my understanding: It lasts and ever shall, for God loves it. And so have all things their beginning by the love of God.

In this little thing I saw three properties. The first is that God made it. The second that God loves it. And the third, that God keeps it.”
― Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love

 

[savagewind]

some thinkers in the church have and do think this way. However it is not what the church teaches.
your questions show that you are still basing your thinking on rewards and punishments.

No. Not punishments. Is not knowing the will of God is accomplished a reward? What are the punishments? I think that to know the will of God has been accomplished is the reward. To be aware that it will not be accomplished is worse than death imo.

put it another way...death and a return to God is inevitable.
however our role when we return, is not necessarily equal...some might have proved better suited in this life to one role than another in the next. What those roles might be are totally unknown. God may chose some to return and fulfill a different role.

I do not live for the next life.

"All shall be well, and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.” Julian of Norwich.

In other words God's will will be done and it will be well.

I agree what God does is always appropriate.

 

[Torah4Yah]

You are wrong.

Stop embarrassing yourself: go to any library and scan through ...

​

... or any comparable text.

I guess I should embarrass myself to since ancient Hebrew didn't have diacritical markers another addition from rabbinical Judaism. So you must be right.

 

[Torah4Yah]

Depends, if what is written was based on an invalid translation then it can be fixed. I will give you one example:

Isaiah 7:13
In most Christian bibles a passage reads: Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign. The virgin (my emphases) will be with child.

In the Tanakh and The New Oxford Annotated Bible the word "virgin" is translated correctly to "young woman".

As you can see I'm missing Yasha'yah 7:1-13 but in verse 14 my translation has virgin. This translation was done within the last 20 years, the source was the DSS.

 

[Torah4Yah]

I don't believe there is any evidence to support this.

I believe I follow Jesus and that Paul is not a prophet and not false.

Verse 2:5 She'owl is the place of seperation from God. Sha'uwl is written and is interchangeable in Hebrew. They are the same word period.

Sha'uwl is Saul is Paul they are the same. Named by name as a warning. Habakkuk was written 666 years before Paul's gospel of grace.

Sha'uwl also means question him.
Note verse 6 "They do not question" , Do you question Paul? You should the church in Asia turned away from him, he said so himself. And in Rev 2:2 that church was commended for doing so.

2 Corinthians 12:7
Paul and his "corrective" demon, just like King Saul of the Old Testament and his demon.

Ravenous wolf of the tribe of Benjamin both of them fear Paul, his word can kill the soul.

 

[Torah4Yah]

View attachment 15642

Verse 2:5 She'owl is the place of seperation from God. Sha'uwl is written and is interchangeable in Hebrew. They are the same word period.

Sha'uwl is Saul is Paul they are the same. Named by name as a warning. Habakkuk was written 666 years before Paul's gospel of grace.

Sha'uwl also means question him.
Note verse 6 "They do not question" , Do you question Paul? You should the church in Asia turned away from him, he said so himself. And in Rev 2:2 that church was commended for doing so.

2 Corinthians 12:7
Paul and his "corrective" demon, just like King Saul of the Old Testament and his demon.

Ravenous wolf of the tribe of Benjamin both of them fear Paul, his word can kill the soul.

 

[Torah4Yah]

Moses probably wrote some of the books of the Old Testament.
Jesus wrote nothing.
God was never an Author of books.

Moses probably wrote some of the books of the Old Testament.
Jesus wrote nothing.
God was never an Author of books.

If the words are coming from God then who wrote it? The man or God?

My opinion is God.