• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Fixing the scripture ...

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I am quite happy to believe that there are competing scholarly interpretations of the text.
At issue is what motivated the interpretation. I צעקו means "they cry out" ... period. Substituting "the righteous" for "they" was a case of 'fixing' the Torah.[/QUOTE]

This is not a word for word translation.....
The "Righteous" comes from the context established in verse 15
The "they" in the original, leaves open who was the subject...
the Righteous in verse 15
or the evildoers in verse 16
It is clearly the former.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At issue is what motivated the interpretation. I צעקו means "they cry out" ... period. Substituting "the righteous" for "they" was a case of 'fixing' the Torah.

This is not a word for word translation.....
The "Righteous" comes from the context established in verse 15
The "they" in the original, leaves open who was the subject...
the Righteous in verse 15
or the evildoers in verse 16
It is clearly the former.
Do you say your god says that if an evil doer cries out to him, he will not answer? That means it was not God who answered me. Who was it then?

I should probably know who I am listening to. Don't you think?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For what reason does a righteous person cry out to God?

I know why a sinner does, but why does a righteous person look for God?

Psalms 34:18 How can a righteous person be contrite? They must fake it. :D
 
Last edited:

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
For what reason does a righteous person cry out to God?

I know why a sinner does, but why does a righteous person look for God?

Psalms 34:18 How can a righteous person be contrite? They must fake it. :D

You hold a very narrow view of the meaning of Righteous.
A righteous person Knows they are a sinner.


Ask that of an anchorite, their whole life is spent in contemplation of and crying out to God

“For a kind soul hath no hell but sin.” ( Julian of Norwich)
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Do you say your god says that if an evil doer cries out to him, he will not answer? That means it was not God who answered me. Who was it then?

I should probably know who I am listening to. Don't you think?

That they call out to God establishes their righteousness.... .
God as the Holy spirit guides, comforts and strengthens us all, yet we are all sinners.
A righteous man can never be more than a work in progress.

At the time of the poem (psalm) it was thought that there was a clear distinction between the righteous and a sinner. And that God would turn his face from a sinner ( p34-16)
To day we understand that we are all sinners.
What I wrote applies to the Poem.
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You hold a very narrow view of the meaning of Righteous.
A righteous person Knows they are a sinner.
I don't think that is what righteous means at 34:15. Could be, but someone thinks the word means "just, righteous, in conduct and character"; "just in one's cause"; "innocent"; "right, correct"


Ask that of an anchorite, their whole life is spent in contemplation of and crying out to God
And how is that righteous? I would consider that behavior sinning against The Lord because righteousness is tied to how we treat other people.

“For a kind soul hath no hell but sin.” ( Julian of Norwich)
I might agree with that.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That they call out to God establishes their righteousness.... .
God as the Holy spirit guides, comforts and strengthens us all, yet we are all sinners.
A righteous man can never be more than a work in progress.
I don't disagree with you. Please explain why God does not answer the other group if any of them cry out to God. To write that the righteous are heard implies that the wicked are not heard if they cry out to him.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another thought! @Terrywoodenpic, you say a righteous person is one who knows he is a sinner. Who doesn't know sin?
Maybe you can explain what it means to know you are a sinner because I think almost everyone or everyone knows it.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I don't disagree with you. Please explain why God does not answer the other group if any of them cry out to God. To write that the righteous are heard implies that the wicked are not heard if they cry out to him.

See my post above #225
Verse 16 says God turns his face from the evil doers.
Most Christians no longer believe that, But the Jews at the time certainly did, in its full implication.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
See my post above #225
Verse 16 says God turns his face from the evil doers.
Most Christians no longer believe that, But the Jews at the time certainly did, in its full implication.
I do not agree with you that it says that.

To turn YHWH against (the) adversary [a particular kind of sin] to cut (off from ) the land memory of. Where there is one adversary there is usually another one. Which one is righteous, in your opinion?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Another thought! @Terrywoodenpic, you say a righteous person is one who knows he is a sinner. Who doesn't know sin?
Maybe you can explain what it means to know you are a sinner because I think almost everyone or everyone knows it.

My local church has a maxim congregation of about 100 out of a population of several thousand.
Today most people in the UK and Europe are not Christians, they never learn about Christianity and have never been to church. They know nothing about religion or its teachings. They may agree that they break the law and do bad things, but they would never call themselves sinners.
My local church has a maximum congregation of about 100 out of a population of several thousand.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My local church has a maxim congregation of about 100 out of a population of several thousand.
Today most people in the UK and Europe are not Christians, they never learn about Christianity and have never been to church. They know nothing about religion or its teachings. They may agree that they break the law and do bad things, but they would never call themselves sinners.
My local church has a maximum congregation of about 100 out of a population of several thousand.
What is the population of several thousand? Your town?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think a truly righteous person tries not to sin, knows he must fight against it, but also will not rest with any dogma. Church is dogma.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I do not agree with you that it says that.

To turn YHWH against (the) adversary [a particular kind of sin] to cut (off from ) the land memory of. Where there is one adversary there is usually another one. Which one is righteous, in your opinion?

NRSV says...

16 The face of the Lord is against
evildoers.
to cut off the remembrance of them
from the earth

Your version is perhaps a JW word for word translation, taking no account of meaning or linguistics.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
NRSV says...

16 The face of the Lord is against
evildoers.
to cut off the remembrance of them
from the earth

Your version is perhaps a JW word for word translation, taking no account of meaning or linguistics.
What is your definition of evildoer?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
NRSV says...

Your version is perhaps a JW word for word translation, taking no account of meaning or linguistics.

NWT version:

15 The eyes of Jehovah are on the righteous,And his ears listen to their cry for help.
16 But the face of Jehovah is against those doing what is bad,To erase all memory of them from the earth.
17 They cried out, and Jehovah heard;+He rescued them from all their distresses.
18 Jehovah is close to the brokenhearted;+He saves those who are crushed in spirit.
19 Many are the hardships* of the righteous one,+But Jehovah rescues him from them all.
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks...

Dont you all find this scripture thing confusing..??..This one says this - that one says that - an Other says another thing entirely...lol...On and On and On.....No wonder confusion is so prevalant....


Fixing the scriptures..???...WHERE do we begin..?......In other places I have spoken about a WRONG GOD - and indeed - this truth alone is the reason WHY we have so many conflicting "truths"......

Does any here trust CHRIST..?>..I mean, HE Himself is at the HEART of all this yes..?....WHAT did HE say..??.....Well - He said clearly - those that supposedly have this spiritual truth He warned - actually know noting at all - and even if they did know He warned, they would NOT share it with you freely at all, but would use such truths to DOMINATE you...


Hmmm - best advise then - put the bible down - put away the scripture - it will lead you astray ALWAYS He warned...You must come to HATE YOUR PARENTS He said clearly - not embrace their errors ever tighter and continue the ignorance forced upon them..Come AWAY fromt he temple - quit babbling like a pagan He said - no more endless prayers,rituals,dogmas SCRITURE - forget it all He said - when you seek my Father - go ALONE - be SECRET - find a place where you can shut the door on the world and NOT allow it to interfere with e DIRECT CIOMMUNION that you endeavour to invoke.....NO EXTERNAL TRUTHS - this Holy Ghost - essential one true guide - is ONLY found within your OWN SELF - and is NEVER to be found in the temple,books,words and teachings of Men..

If you must have any scripture at all for guidance - then I would strongly suggest it NOT be the bible or Jewish sources at all for I can show you no end of twists and turns there that lead to this confused state - but instead choose and read only those gospels the DISCIPLES wrote FIRST HAND - and NO Folks - those are NOT to be found in the bible as the books there are counterfeit, fully admitted even by the church itself..

Shun it all He said - DAMN THE PHARISEE (religious authoirty) that neither knows truth nor shares it He said...DAMN them - strong words form HIM of all people - He DESPISED the Jewish religion and its god and if we REALLY want to fix the scripture then at some point we will need must acknowledge that FACT head on and deal with its implicationsd for the rest.. Shun and avoid all forms of public institutionalised religion He said.. He DID then give us a sure fire infallable means to access this legitimate Divine truth DIRECTLY for ourself - the Holy Ghost as it became known (kundalini) - no priest or religion or middleman of any description is ever needed at all,and following these others will always lead us astray..Through THIS inner process alone He said, call forth this Divine Presence within and hold to the Divine Wisdom that it brings..Seek ALWAYS for this living truth within, bring it forth here in the world and ALWAYS follow it and only it - seek the Living One for as long as you live He said - or you will die and be unable to comprehend and so trap yourself again in the same cycle of error - for those with ears to hear - prepare yourself accordingly He said....

So - to "fix the scripture" means we NEED take it right back to the start - the god of the Jews discussed here - is NOT Our Father that Christ taught about and a greta deal of His teaching is aimed at getting us AWAY formth at one entirely....There is the place to start.....Work out that truth first then the rest begins to fall into place - obviously so...Only then can we ever hope to get a hold on the twists and turns that bought the confusion we share today..

And the confusion is EVERYWHERE - every aspect - every spiritual law - poorly understood....I give a clear example - this issue here - sin and salvation - ANYBODY got any idea at all - just WHAT IS SIN>>?????.......Because I tell you straight - it is NEVER explained BY the religion at all or ANY of those other sources...it is ALWAYS taken for granted that mankind knows and understands that it IS a "sinner" and the only explanation it offers ANYWHERE - is to say we are made this way because the god chose it to be so....

So - anybody - care to enlighten us..?....What is SIN..?...What is it exactly that we need saving from here..?....I expect if anybody answers they will give the standard religious parrot fashion repsonse - but please first - go check out what Christ ACTUALLY said, then compare it what your priest or other source said - and I can practically guarantee there will be a huge difference in understanding...Those that teach you all this - are not even qualified to utter the words - they have been deceiving you all along He warned you all clearly...Fixing the scripture means really going right back to the start - but as a start here - as offered any takers..??....

WHAT is sin - actually - what is salvation - actually..??..Does anybody know what CHRIST said DIRECTLY as opposed to what the scripture says ABOUT HIM says..??..
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let's just say (why the hell not?) that the meaning of Psalm 34:16 might be this.

The cry of the righteous is for help against the adversary. The adversary is a perceived enemy of the will of God to accomplish.
The prayer of the "righteous" is for Jehovah to turn his face against them. But God answers them, I do not remember them. (they are nothing) You keep on being something.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I think a truly righteous person tries not to sin, knows he must fight against it, but also will not rest with any dogma. Church is dogma.

Exactly.... Though dogma does not define a person. A person might adhere to a dogma or not, but that confers nothing beneficial or harmful in itself.

Some churchess have no dogma... see the following...http://www.nspresbyterian.org/pages/faith.htm
This particular local Chuch was established in Comber by my family, and built by them on their land.
At the time the non subscribing Presbyterian church had an important presence in Northern Ireland, and was Unitarian in character.
 
Top