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Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Oberon

Well-Known Member
1Clement does not contain anything from the Gospels.

First step, misread the chart. Once it has been pointed out that you made an error, revert back to baseless assertions contradicted by evidence and multiple studies. If all else fails, quote a reference to a study (by Koester) you don't understand and, while it may support your more immediate point, ultimately devastates your main one (of the mythical Jesus) by providing not only independent testimony to Jesus' teachings which is attested to elsewhere (e.g. the synoptics), but shows how reliably the oral Jesus transmission was transmitted.

Thank you Emu, but we've discussed those already.

Yes, and you (in all your infinite wisdom) went with the "expert in oral traditions" Koester. Only 1. he isn't an expert and 2. far more argue that 1 clement does indeed make use of the gospels.

Either way, as I pointed out, you are not supported. If you want to argue that 1 Clement is in no way aware of the gospels, but uses oral tradition, not only are you left with a number of other references, but you are now supporting the point I made all along: the oral Jesus tradition was fairly reliably transmitted and controlled. If 1 Clement makes use of an oral tradition independently of the gospels, and yet he is so close to them even 60+ years after Jesus' death, obviously the oral tradition (which you previously argued didn't really exist) was good at retaining accurately Jesus' teachings. Otherwise, how could 1 Clement, 60+ years after Jesus, record the same traditions as are recorded in the synoptics?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Yes, and you (in all your infinite wisdom) went with the "expert in oral traditions" Koester. Only 1. he isn't an expert and 2. far more argue that 1 clement does indeed make use of the gospels.

Are you referring to Helmut Koester? :facepalm:

He is a student of Bultmann, and the teacher of my mentor Carolyn Osiek.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Are you referring to Helmut Koester? :facepalm:

I am refering to the following:

Scholars such as R. M. Grant (The Apostolic Fathers, vol.1: An Introduction, p.40) admits that Clement’s source is probably oral. (Grant appeals to Helmut Koester, who is generally regarded as the leading authority on the subject of the Fathers’ dependence on oral tradition rather than on written Gospels: see his Ancient Christian Gospels, p.14-20.) Clement's knowledge of any of the Gospels has never been satisfactorily demonstrated.

Koester, the harvard professor and teacher of a number of well-known NT experts (like Crossan), and a great scholar (although I disagree with the thrust of what he is perhaps best known for) is not "the leading authority on the subject of the Fathers' dependence on oral tradition." In fact, he isn't the "leading authority" on anything related to this. He is an authority on any number of NT related issues, and perhaps the most influential voice of the 20th century in arguing for early dates for extra-canonical sources, but the above (i.e. the designation of "leading authority on the subject...etc") goes well beyond what is justified.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Koester, the harvard professor and teacher of a number of well-known NT experts (like Crossan), and a great scholar (although I disagree with the thrust of what he is perhaps best known for) is not "the leading authority on the subject of the Fathers' dependence on oral tradition."

In fact, he isn't the "leading authority" on anything related to this. He is an authority on any number of NT related issues, and perhaps the most influential voice of the 20th century in arguing for early dates for extra-canonical sources, but the above (i.e. the designation of "leading authority on the subject...etc") goes well beyond what is justified.

Have you read his latest work? I'd be very shocked if he did not address this in some detail...

This whole concept of orality just seems like child's play compared to what Koester has done...
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
Have you read his latest work? I'd be very shocked if he did not address this in some detail...

He addresses it in detail in more than one place. I'm not arguing he doesn't have the relevant expertise, nor that he has never addressed the issue. Simply that he isn't and has never been considered "the leading authority" on this issue.

This whole concept of orality just seems like child's play compared to what Koester has done...


Depends on where you are looking from and what you are interested in. Most of what Koester is concerned with is only related to early christian, biblical, and NT studies. Orality, however, is a field that spans multiple different fields. Not only has it revolutionized Homeric studies and been a substantial aspect of anthropology, but it is now influencing everything from NT studies to modern music in america to islamic studies and even psychology. Additionally, as W. Kelber noted fairly recently, nothing is likely to change the face of NT studies as orality is. If our sources are based primarily on oral tradition, understanding orality is paramount.

Koester's teacher, Bultmann, understood this, and Form Criticism was an early and vigirous attempt to deal with orality. Unfortunately, almost every aspect of it has been questioned and found wanting, but this is only to be expected in the first major attempt.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Either people simply began to attribute all manner of teachings and sayings to a Jesus, whether Jewish or Greek cynic sage type, Q and Thomas sayings and teachings as well as from the OT, or all these teachings were distinctly remembered as coming from a particular Jesus of the early 1st century which no one wrote down until the end of the century, but perfectly preserved in their memories and passed on for 60+ years as it has been suggested by a certain Oberon. Occam's razor anybody?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Orality, however, is a field that spans multiple different fields. Not only has it revolutionized Homeric studies and been a substantial aspect of anthropology, but it is now influencing everything from NT studies to modern music in america to islamic studies and even psychology. Additionally, as W. Kelber noted fairly recently, nothing is likely to change the face of NT studies as orality is.

:rolleyes:
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Either people simply began to attribute all manner of teachings and sayings to a Jesus, whether Jewish or Greek cynic sage type, Q and Thomas sayings and teachings as well as from the OT, or all these teachings were distinctly remembered as coming from a particular Jesus of the early 1st century which no one wrote down until the end of the century, but perfectly preserved in their memories and passed on for 60+ years as it has been suggested by a certain Oberon. Occam's razor anybody?

1. Your Occam's razor reflects a lack of understanding not only on the nature of orality but more importantly on the culture of the first century and the nature of ancient texts. We are EXTREMELY lucky that various authors, including Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, began recording in WRITING the Jesus tradition as early as c. 35+ years after Jesus' mission. We don't have ANYTHING near that for the vast majority of ancient teachers. Pythagoras, Hillel, Shammai, the Teacher of Righteousness, John the Baptist, and many, many other famous and very influential teachers have barely any mention anywhere, or are only mentioned in a substantial biography 7 centuries or so later.

Yet Jesus has 4 complete lives, as well a numerous other references to his teachings, within a lifetime or two of his mission.

2. If people simply attributed any all manner of sayings to Jesus, then independent sources (Q. Mark, Paul, John, and according to you 1 Clement) would vary widely, more than they agree. Yet we don't see that. Jesus' teaching's are fairly consistently recorded in these sources.

3. The oral tradition began to take written form as early as Paul, and was shortly followed by Mark. I am not arguing that the oral tradition remained well preserved 60+ years after Jesus' death. That is (in essence) your argument, by arguing that 1 Clement independently records Jesus' teachings. I am arguing that 1 Clement used the synoptics. Occam's Razor: We have a number of lines in 1 Clement that are similar to lines found in the synoptics. Either we can suppose that 1 Clement, 60+ years after Jesus' mission, and while the gospel texts are beginning to dominate, independently had access to an oral tradition that faithfully preserved teachings of Jesus recorded in the synoptics, OR we can accept the simpler solution: 1 Clement used the synoptics.

4. When there is a question in ancient history on whether a various traditions are based off of the same tradition, it is because they are attributed to different names and the sources disagree so vastly. For example, there are a number of references to an Antiphon whom most classicists agree are the same person: Antiphon the Sophist, Antiphon of Ramnus, and Antiophon the Orator, usually referred to in texts simply as Antiphon. We have a number of speeches attributed to Antiphon, as well as philosophic fragments, and a number of references, but accounts disagree and the speeches are not only stylistically different from each other, they don't at all resemble the philosophy, either in form or in belief system. Yet most classicists argue that all of these are the same antiphon. The differences in the texts attributed to him are explained by their different genres. The differences in titles are explained by the focus of the person referencing antiphon. And so forth.

We have no such evidence for multiple different people behind the jesus tradition. Q, the earliest record of sayings, attributes everything to Jesus Christ. Paul also calls him Jesus Christ, as does everyone else, even Josephus (who changes it to "called Christ"). The only other titles (e.g. Jesus of Nazareth) are given in works which ALSO refer to Jesus christ. Not only that, the teachings attributed to Jesus are far more similar than, for example, the sources attributed to Antiphon. We have no reason to assume that people simply began to attribute sayings to a person who was eventually thought to be some "jesus" and every reason to doubt this.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Oberon - you are a Christian apologist trapped in an agnostic's body. :D

I wish we could do a Freaky Friday thing and switch minds.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Oberon - you are a Christian apologist trapped in an agnostic's body. :D

It all depends on the subject in question. When it comes to the historicity of Jesus, my hypotheses are far closer to the conservative side of christian scholarship. When it comes to debating evidence for christian belief, then my agnostic side comes out.

I wish we could do a Freaky Friday thing and switch minds.

Yeah, but then I would have to give up my rippling abs, massive pecs, and bulking biceps.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
When it comes to the historicity of Jesus, my hypotheses are far closer to the conservative side of christian scholarship. When it comes to debating evidence for christian belief, then my agnostic side comes out.

The problem is, as we've noted before, this distinction is artificial.

Your arguments concerning orality make the argument for the authenticity of content exceptionally strong.

I'm not convinced, for example, that ancient witnesses could have misunderstood a resurrection or healing miracles.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
When it comes to debating evidence for christian belief, then my agnostic side comes out.

Do you feel that you are right on the edge of belief? It seems to me like you're standing on the edge of a razor...
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
The problem is, as we've noted before, this distinction is artificial.

Your arguments concerning orality make the argument for the authenticity of content exceptionally strong.

I'm not convinced, for example, that ancient witnesses could have misunderstood a resurrection or healing miracles.

Why not? There are plenty of recent historical examples where both curses and healings have been documented as having effects. Nobody doubts that various events throughout history (even in recent times) were understood as miracles by eyewitnesses. What is doubted is whether such events were correctly interpreted. I don't doubt that numerous eyewitnesses saw Jesus do things they interpreted as being miraculous. But this makes him no different than plenty of others, including modern "faith healers" who are also credited with similar "miracles" by eyewitnesses.

Do you feel that you are right on the edge of belief? It seems to me like you're standing on the edge of a razor...

I do, actually, only that belief is closer to a sort of deism. That is why my religion on my profile is "mostly agnostic." As far as christianity is concerned, I see enough evidence that I have a hard time explaining where it came from without Jesus' resurrection. All the historical explanations, to my mind, are implausible. However, dogsgod's "mythic Jesus," as completely implausible as it is, is nonetheless MORE plausible than God's son coming to earth and resurrection. In the end, my lack of faith always seems to win.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
1 Clement 13:2:
for thus He spake Have mercy, that ye may receive mercy: forgive,that it may be forgiven to you. As ye do, so shall it be done to you. As ye give, so shall it be given unto you. As ye judge, so shall ye be judged. As ye show kindness, so shall kindness beshowed unto you. With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured withal to you.

Telling me that is not in the gospels?

Matthew 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Luke37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

As I previously stated:

No doubt there is similarity of such sentiments to some of the Sermon on the Mount and in other places as well, but these words and the sequence isn't even close to being identical to any Gospel passage, if they were, Oberon no doubt would have laid them out for us. Scholars such as R. M. Grant (The Apostolic Fathers, vol.1: An Introduction, p.40) admits that Clement’s source is probably oral. (Grant appeals to Helmut Koester, who is generally regarded as the leading authority on the subject of the Fathers’ dependence on oral tradition rather than on written Gospels: see his Ancient Christian Gospels, p.14-20.) Clement's knowledge of any of the Gospels has never been satisfactorily demonstrated.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
It became common practice to attribute all manner of sayings and teachings to a Jesus towards the end of the first century. Thomas is an example of a sayings Gospel that simply consists of a list of over a hundred teachings and sayings, all beginning with "Jesus said."
 
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logician

Well-Known Member
It became common practice to attribute all manner of sayings and teachings to a Jesus towards the end of the first century. Thomas is an example of a sayings Gospel that simply consists of a list of over a hundred teachings and sayings, all beginning with "Jesus said."

It is unfortunate that the supposed Jesus did not write a short autobiography to "set us all straight" about what really happened during his lifetime. It sure would have cleared up a lot of confusion.
 
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