Yes, because he didn't know the earthly Jesus and had to compete with those who did. Yet he still gives us nuggets of Jesus' teachings (most directly the one on divorce), tells us about Jesus' final meal, states that he was descended from David according to the flesh (very earthly) and that he was crucified. He also tells us he knew Jesus' brother.
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Flavius Josephus About Jesus?
- Thread starter Ben Masada
- Start date
Yes, because he didn't know the earthly Jesus and had to compete with those who did. Yet he still gives us nuggets of Jesus' teachings (most directly the one on divorce), tells us about Jesus' final meal, states that he was descended from David according to the flesh (very earthly) and that he was crucified. He also tells us he knew Jesus' brother.
If he did not base his knowledge on an earthly Jesus, why did he distinguish between his teachings and Jesus'?
Man, you couldn't do a better job of proving how little you know if you tried. Jesus is the only one of all the ancient world to prohibit divorce. It was taken as a given by the jews, romans, greeks, and so forth.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
I wonder about this... it's often assumed by NT scholars, but I'm not quite convinced that this is true.
Why not? There is no evidence anywhere of anyone stating something like this. It is one of the few radical teachings of Jesus I think is historical (unlike his statement about dietary laws). It is attested to in multiple independent sources, including Paul (which is quite rare). It is also radically different from every single source we have for teachers and cultures before, during, and after Jesus.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
According to Paul the Lord said that a woman must not divorce but if she does she should not remarry. Cor 7:11
There are circumstances where divorce is prohibited. Deut 22:19They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
There are circumstances where divorce is prohibited. Deut 22:19They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
Well, later writers pick up the idea -- it is associated with Pythagoras by Iamblichus I believe... It seems to me that the "radical" nature of this teaching is exagerrated by NT apologists.
We do have papyrii and monuments from the first century that indicate that lifelong marriage was treasured by monogamous couples and divorce was painful and unattractive, so it seems to me that a teacher who taught the same thing would be not so radical.
There were certain customs governing marriage and divorce in all cultures. But Jesus says nothing about this according to Paul. Neither the wife or husband is to leave their spouse. No circumstances are given AT ALL. This is completely unique within Jewish, Roman, and Greek culture.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
There's nothing radical here.
Matthew 19:4
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus grants divorce for marital unfaithfulness, nothing new here.
Malachi 1:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel.
Matthew 19:4
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus grants divorce for marital unfaithfulness, nothing new here.
Malachi 1:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel.
1. Matthew is likely to have added that
2. According to you, the gospels are completely ahistorical, so nothing in them should be used
3. All throughout Jewish history, divorce is permitted. It was a given.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
Some examples...
Online Companion: Marriage
Funerary altar in marble dedicated to Primigenia and Diogenes, probably freedpersons, who had lived together 47 years, by their freedpersons and slaves (inscription). The opulent reliefs echo Augustan monuments: garlands, birds, ram's heads, eagle (side 1 with traditional jug for libations; side 2 with patera). Julio-Claudian period (14-68 CE). New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Funeral Stele for Dasumia Soteris whose long and harmonious life of 35 years with her husband Lucius Dasumius Callistus, the dedicator, is inscribed on the stone, along with his regret to have outlived her. The upper figured relief, probably of the couple, has been broken off and is lost; the space at the bottom was probably intended for his epitaph. (CIL VI.16753). Rome, 2nd century CE. London: British Museum.
Funerary tablet for Severa Seleuciane and her husband Aurelius Sabutius who had lived together for 17 years before the death 10 years earlier of one of them. In the upper corner is a drawing of a shuttle and upright loom, symbols of her traditional virtue as a materfamilias or a sign of their trade as weavers. The inscription in irregular letters rather confusingly dates their deaths by the consulships of the emperors Probus Augustus and Nonius Paternus. The first words of the troubled inscription (cum cumvixit) are redundant. The dedicator of the marble tablet is unnamed. 279 CE (Gordon III.302). Rome, Capitoline Museums.
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dogsgod
Well-Known Member
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
What "scripture" is he talking about...?....
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Ancient Jewish scripture, what non Jews refer to as the OT.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
But that's what I'm saying (asking)....What OT scriptures say this..?
"that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
In connection to Luke 24:46 please read chapter 53 of Isaiah. (Isa 50:6)
Mark 9:31 is connected to Jonah 1:17
Acts 2:27,31 is connected to Psalm 16:10.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm well aware of these and how the NT writers sought inspiration for their stories by referring back to materiel in their possession. I've read Isaiah and I don't think it applies to Yeshua at all.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Apostles followed a mystical process of interpreting revelations, (visions) and taking lines from scripture to pass on to their followers depending on what message they are trying to instill upon them. The lines they take from scripture don't have to necessarily apply to Yeshua, they're there for the apostles to apply as they see fit. The phrase "according to the scriptures," traditionally interpreted as meaning 'in fulfillment of the scriptures,' can also mean 'as the scriptures tell us' or 'as we learn from the scriptures.' URAVIP2ME made some good connections.