Flood Evidences — revised

[Audie]

I have seen that. It was only mildly entertaining science fiction.

I could not make myself watch all of it

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I could not make myself watch all of it

It is almost three hours long. I only skimmed that one and watched a couple of the shorter versions in full to understand what was being claimed.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I could not make myself watch all of it

I note that they are attempting to use evidence from today to explain conditions of the past. A creationist no no under ordinary circumstances, but hypocrisy was suspended for this particular hypothetical situation.

 

[tas8831]

With your extensive geology expertise, can you explain how it is that flood runoff necessarily runs into a larger canyon rather than flowing 'downhill' on its own?

Guess not.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Further evidence (its fascinating!):


Star lore of all ages; a collection of myths, legends, and facts concerning the constellations of the Northern Hemisphere : Olcott, William Tyler, 1873-1936 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

And this book “Worship of the Dead” by Colonel John Garner (not the best writer, but detailing interesting facts from respected and unrelated sources, all of which arrived at similar conclusions):

The Worship of the Dead

 

[coconut theology]

...Another indirect line of evidence, as to why God would cause such a catastrophe, are the Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc., myths describing “gods” interacting w/ humans, having relations w/ women, and producing offspring. (Since most all myths have some kernel of truth, this common narrative between them, of gods having sex w/ human females & bearing children, must be it.) It parallels Genesis 6:1-4, and explains to some extent why Jehovah had to step in, to thwart the eventual subjugation of the human race into sex slavery. But these “myths” created after the event, have kept it living in the collective mind of the human race.

All excellent up to this point, at which point it seriously diverges from truth and facts, and enters into plain error (demonstrable upon request, from scripture). Genesis 6 has nothing to say about such ""gods" interacting w/ humans, having relations w/women, and producing offspring" (sic). It is a bizarre theology that actually is destructive to the everlasting Gospel. If you would like to see that shown from scripture, let me know.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

All excellent up to this point, at which point it seriously diverges from truth and facts, and enters into plain error (demonstrable upon request, from scripture). Genesis 6 has nothing to say about such ""gods" interacting w/ humans, having relations w/women, and producing offspring" (sic). It is a bizarre theology that actually is destructive to the everlasting Gospel. If you would like to see that shown from scripture, let me know.

It was a wicked world, that needed destroying. On a global scale.

These “sons of God,” were “the angels that sinned” in 2 Peter 2:4.

They “forsook their proper dwelling place” (Jude 1:6) — heaven — and came to Earth. With their abilities as described in the Gospels (fleeing into a herd of pigs), we see why the entire Earth needed to be cleansed, w/ it’s animal life destroyed.

If these “sons of God” of Genesis 6 were ‘regular’ men, they couldn’t have taken “all whom they chose,” as their wives. As materialized superhuman angels, they could. And did. They acted as “powerful ones”, which in ancient Greek, is what a god was.

It also explains the common thread of gods having relations w/ humans found in many unrelated ancient myths: Hindi, Norse, Greek, etc. (A common thread in any unrelated things, such as stories, reveals a kernel of truth.)

Further evidence is found in the Bible itself.....that same phrase, “sons of God,” is found in Job 1, Job 2, and Job 38; it always applies to angels.

I’m secure in my beliefs. Thank you, though!

 

[coconut theology]

I’m secure in my beliefs. Thank you, though!

Sounds like you are afraid of controversy surrounding your "secure" "beliefs". You may indeed be "secure", but that doesn't make your "belief" sound or factual. Some people really believe that they are Napoleon, and are quite secure in that belief. Yet, when tested against facts contrary to their position, we see that they are in fact, delusional, and afraid to admit those facts which are contrary to themselves. They have made themselves the standard of truth.

As you will then. I will not force upon you facts to which you do not desire to see, though you will remain as you are, even as they who think they are Napoleon.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sounds like you are afraid of controversy surrounding your "secure" "beliefs". You may indeed be "secure", but that doesn't make your "belief" sound or factual. Some people really believe that they are Napoleon, and are quite secure in that belief. Yet, when tested against facts contrary to their position, we see that they are in fact, delusional, and afraid to admit those facts which are contrary to themselves. They have made themselves the standard of truth.

As you will then. I will not force upon you facts to which you do not desire to see, though you will remain as you are, even as they who think they are Napoleon.

Please, present your side.
But I gave you several lines of evidence supporting the view I was taught, and they make perfect application to the Flood event. The evidence is why I am secure.
A person believing they're Napoleon, has no evidence.

Just what is your view, and your evidence? Believe me, I will scrutinize it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Further evidence (its fascinating!):


Star lore of all ages; a collection of myths, legends, and facts concerning the constellations of the Northern Hemisphere : Olcott, William Tyler, 1873-1936 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

And this book “Worship of the Dead” by Colonel John Garner (not the best writer, but detailing interesting facts from respected and unrelated sources, all of which arrived at similar conclusions):

The Worship of the Dead

Can you summarize this evidence that is supposed to be contained in these works?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Can you summarize this evidence that is supposed to be contained in these works?

Yes.
Most of what’s described are “festivals to the dead”, honoring the dead (including - but not only - Halloween/Samhain & Dia de los Muertos), The interesting fact about them, is that many are celebrated at the same time of year, which corresponds to the time of year, October/November, when the Flood occurred, which killed the entire world of that day! How did that become a shared annual event, if it were not based on actual events?

One of them I posted, I think, discusses the common thread found in many ancient, unrelated myths, that of “gods” sleeping with human women, and producing offspring that were not quite gods, but in ways stronger than the average human. Sound familiar? Like Hercules? Perseus? Aeneas? These have their genuine counterparts in the Nephilim described in the events of Genesis 6:1-4. (“Sons of the True God,” mentioned here, were angels. Since they could take “all whom they chose (women),” obviously they were more powerful than the average human male ....they would seem to be gods to the average person. And, these were “the angels who sinned” of 2 Peter 2:4; referred to again as “the angels who forsook their natural dwelling place” in Jude 1:6.)

Question: How do unrelated legends (like Norse, Hindu, Greek [I won’t include Roman here: they definitely are related to / borrowed from Greek], Native American, etc.... List of love and lust deities - Wikipedia), worldwide, share a common thread of something sounding so perverse as higher beings sleeping w/ human females, and producing hybrid offspring? Because this common teaching found in these myths, too, is based on real events!

This also explains why the Flood needed to be global...these angels (who made themselves demons) were no doubt existing all throughout the Earth, by the time Noah completed the Ark.

Do you remember “Chariots of the Gods”?

 

[joelr]

Global Flood evidence:

***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (some which only grows in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs Ark Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent. (Maybe from all five.) But the waters existing above the Earth prior to the Flood, resulted in mild temperatures, and pleasantly warm.... similar to a greenhouse effect, worldwide. (That’s why Adam & Eve could go naked, and be very comfortable.) Yes, the Bible indicates there were seasons, but apparently mild ones.

All of that drastically changed, with the break in this vapor(?) / ice (?) canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

***2.This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:
‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’.

And this one:
Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian

Further information:
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

***7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what Psalms 104 reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

Are you of the mindset that, when reading about God causing a global Flood, you don’t think He’d use His power throughout other aspects of the event? Or afterwards? Let’s see what the Genesis account reveals: He brought the waters above and below to Earth’s surface....He gave Noah instructions on building the Ark, providing those ideal proportions....He brought the animals to Noah (No, Noah didn’t have to go get them, as some dishonestly purport.)....and He closed the door. Only those w/ closed minds would assume (want to, maybe?) that God’s power stopped there. Is He somehow incapable of protecting the occupants in the Ark, or the plant life underneath the waters? Does Jehovah God have to reveal / explain every aspect involved? If He brought the animal to Noah, is it too much of a stretch to believe that Jehovah redistributed them to their former locations after the Flood?

Sourcing myths is not science.
Sourcing one apologist site is not peer-reviewed science.
An assumption that a "kernal" of myths are true is not science. Yes myths are used to express laws and wisdom. Not gods and demi-gods.

Actual science:

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf California State University's list of 38 reasons why mainstream science knows there was no worldwide flood.

Flood theories can account for none of these:
"Modern geology,
its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.

Erosion
The global flood cannot explain geological formations such as angular unconformities, where sedimentary rocks have been tilted and eroded then more sedimentary layers deposited on top, needing long periods of time for these processes. There is also the time needed for the erosion of valleys in sedimentary rock mountains. In another example, the flood, had it occurred, should also have produced large-scale effects spread throughout the entire world. Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly.

Geochronology
Geochronology is the science of determining the absolute age of rocks, fossils, and sediments by a variety of techniques. These methods indicate that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.

Paleontology
If the flood were responsible for fossilization, then all the animals now fossilized must have been living together on the Earth just before the flood. Based on estimates of the number of remains buried in the Karoo fossil formation in Africa, this would correspond to an abnormally high density of vertebrates worldwide, close to 2100 per acre.[84] Creationists argue that evidence for the geological column is fragmentary, and all the complex layers of chalk occurred in the approach to the 150th day of Noah's flood.[114][115] However, the entire geologic column is found in several places, and shows multiple features, including evidence of erosion and burrowing through older layers, which are inexplicable on a short timescale. Carbonate hardgrounds and the fossils associated with them show that the so-called flood sediments include evidence of long hiatuses in deposition that are not consistent with flood dynamics or timing.

Geochemistry
Proponents of Flood Geology are also unable to account for the alternation between calcite seas and aragonite seas through the Phanerozoic.

Sedimentary rock features
Phil Senter's 2011 article, "The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology", in the journal Reports of the National Center for Science Education, discusses "sedimentologic and other geologic features that Flood geologists have identified as evidence that particular strata cannot have been deposited during a time when the entire planet was under water ... and distribution of strata that predate the existence of the Ararat mountain chain." TUsing their own words, Flood geologists find evidence in every Paleozoic and Mesozoic period, and in every epoch of the Cenozoic period, indicating that a global flood could not have occurred during that interval


I am not interested in arguing endlessly on fiction that came from myths.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (some which only grows in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

Millions of animals in permafrost has not been discovered....only a couple hundred, with the rest being mostly microbes, bacteria and other microscopic creatures. Ice cores and dating of them show dates older than the flood, as well as the animals discovered. It's also notable that none of the animals I've found are dated from the time of the flood. Of course I guess you probably don't accept carbon dating, so that probably won't matter to you. So not evidence here, mere speculation and assuming that all the animals are from the time of the flood, despite no evidence for that conclusion. Also a mammoth falling through ice would easily explain the unchewed food.

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” All of that drastically changed, with the break in this vapor(?) / ice (?) canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. We aren't talking about a small storm in a cold area that then produces ice, we are talking about rain enough to cover the planet and all the mountains, which means all the cold places with ice, get covered, humidity increases a gigantic amount, the jetstreams are no longer a factor and essentially you have a giant ball of water, in which the humidity would be crazy high, with the oceans being closer to the sun, which would increase the evaporation effect, increasing temperatures. Ever been to the equator? The part of the earth most directly in the line of the sun? It's humid and hot! Besides which, the bible does not support your premise and says nothing about ice right after the flood by your own admission as well....so this one isn't evidence, but pure speculation to try and support another speculation to explain why there are ancient frozen animals in permafrost, even though none of them date from the flood.

This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion [/URL].

So what? All it indicates is that the dimensions of the craft, with the animals would have floated...not that it did happen, or that it would float for a year or would stay seaworthy for that long without falling apart. For proof, I reference the largest wooden ship ever built by professional ship builders, the Wyoming. It was not as long or as wide as the Ark (only 350x50), used modern materials like metal cross brackets, bolts, modern techniques by the best ship builders in the world at the time...and it still suffered from tremendous troubles and constantly leaked, had a mechanical water pump on board constantly running to keep it dry, but eventually sank killing all hands on board. According to the bible the Ark used "Gopher wood", "Pitch" and wooden nails. To say it would last a year, under tremendous weight and with waves pounding it, with no water pumps on board is wishful thinking at best.

***3.Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that these proportions are perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy.

The articles didn't say stability, they said it could float. The dimensions for ships recognized now aren't done in wood. There are no wooden ships that big, because wood is not that stable and all wooden ships above a certain size, even with modern materials...don't stay afloat for long. The wood bends, buckles and warps with the pressure of the sea, which is why they stopped building large wooden ships. So no...this doesn't support that the ship actually existed, or could sail for a year without falling apart. Again, speculation and not one warranted by the evidence.

***4.The numerous Flood legends (exceeding 250, one anthropologist says near 1,000), that share many similarities, some strikingly so, that indicates a common source.

I guess you are just pretending that the flood legends that predate the biblical text don't exist? Or that the dates are wrong? More likely that your flood myth was plagiarized from these other flood myths, such as the Sumerian Eridu Genesis (Even the name was stolen). It is speculation that all of this refers to a common event, especially since the Eridu Genesis refers to a local flood, not a worldwide one.

***5.Furthermore, the Bible indicates, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. (With the underground waters spewing upward, the land would, by necessity, settle downward.) This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Some were even underwater prior to the Flood — see #6. (Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking. What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)

You couldn't be more uneducated on this subject. Erosion actually creates the mountains we see today and if they were "relatively young formation", they would be more jagged and erratic than how they appear today. However, you see the erosion in the areas where the weather actually impacts it, at the bedrock level and the levels where there is vegetation. The higher levels are protected due to being so high they aren't subjected to the same weather effects, especially those in cold climates and those that have ice at the top, which completely protects from erosion. But here, read for yourself if you dare. How Erosion Builds Mountains

***6.[related to #5]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. (Clams in natural death, die w/ their shells open.) All remain exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!!

This has long been explained. Here's the problem with this idea. If it was really true that these specific mountains (not all of them have this feature) were once under water as they are now, then you'd expect both marine and land creatures to appear mixed, all over these mountains....but they don't. Instead you find only marine at the top and they are fossilized marine creatures that no longer exist today. That instead supports the idea that at one time, the top of the mountain was at sea level and raised due to plate tectonics, which is why you only find them there and not at all levels of the mountain since the oldest levels would have been pushed up first. A "catastrophic event" as you described, would show evidence all over the mountain of dead things and a good mix of land and sea animals, all at one time...but they don't.

***7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

First of all, how much water is in the mantle of the earth is pure speculation at this point, but this article from the Smithsonian only indicates as much as 3x the volume on the surface Is there An Ocean Below Your Feet?, but that most of it is actually trapped in rock or in other forms, not necessarily liquid. The highest mountain on earth is Mount Everest which is 29,029 feet above sea level. Converted to miles that would be 5.5 miles (rounded) (1 Mile = 5,280 Feet), so no...2.5 miles worth of water wouldn't cover it and just because there is water beneath the surface, doesn't mean that it came to the surface all in one fell swoop, or that it would be enough to cover the earth high enough to cover the tallest mountain. All speculation here, still no evidence.

***8.The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8”. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people, to get his writing from!

Got to be honest, this one comes off as conspiracy nonsense, but quite simply is not correct at all. This was done by someone who actually speaks multiple languages including Mandarin, Japanese, Taiwanese, Arabic, Hebrew, Spanish, German, French, etc... and took the time to correct these mistakes, which is supported by those who actually speak Chinese and have spoken to this on multiple forums: http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages/chinchar/chinchar.html, but basically the people who came up with this, misinterpreted the symbols, maybe on purpose, to support their own narrative. To expand, what the article says in case you don't read it, that the "vessel" symbol is actually a pictograph of a dugout canoe, that the upper part misinterpreted as "Eight", actually means "divide", but that the two are easily confused as they look similar and that the lower part is the pictograph for mouth and not "people". Even if it was true that it said "vessel, eight, people", it's still a very, very long stretch to say that it specifically refers to the biblical flood narrative instead of some other events within their own history. But as it stands, this is a misinterpretation of pictographs.

Very poor job here overall.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh no! Not this dead horse again

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The highest mountain on earth is Mount Everest which is 29,029 feet above sea level. Converted to miles that would be 5.5 miles (rounded) (1 Mile = 5,280 Feet), so no...2.5 miles worth of water wouldn't cover it

Another straw man.
Earlier in another thread you tried to deny what you yourself wrote, and when pointed out, you ignored it; so what do you think that indicates? It doesn’t bolster your credibility… does it?

And BTW, the Flood had two water sources, not just “rain.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

Another straw man.
Earlier in another thread you tried to deny what you yourself wrote, and when pointed out, you ignored it; so what do you think that indicates? It doesn’t bolster your credibility… does it?

And BTW, the Flood had two water sources, not just “rain.”

And that other source would have cooked Noah and company. As well as rain from beyond the "firmament".

Why do you keep posting this nonsense after it has been refuted countless times?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And that other source would have cooked Noah and company. As well as rain from beyond the "firmament".

Your evidence for that, is…..?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your evidence for that, is…..?

Basic physics.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

Another straw man.
Earlier in another thread you tried to deny what you yourself wrote, and when pointed out, you ignored it; so what do you think that indicates? It doesn’t bolster your credibility… does it?

So despite me countering every single point...you claim I did a straw man, didn't reference the straw man and now are claiming that I ignored something, but didn't indicate what. My credibility isn't the one that's lacking here, especially since I responded to all of your points in great detail and you can't even bother to back up your claim that I created a strawman, or apparently some other thing I ignored from another post. The fact that you didn't reply to my actual post...at all...counter any points at all....and claimed I did something wrong, but didn't say what....shows your integrity is lacking. At this point you are just doing ad hominem, which means you've lost.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your evidence for that, is…..?

One cannot demand evidence when one does not understand the concept.