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Florida's "Don't Say Gay" Bill, what am I missing?

Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
RayofLight said:
That's assuming the kid would tell about the abuse

You are correct tho the best thing would be for the kid to be removed but DSS sucks here.
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That's part of my issue.
I can't imagine the abuse of children and any abuse I suffered is minor in comparison.
However I don't have the same trust in institutions that you may have.
Keeping secrets from parents open up the potential of abuse by by teachers and councilors.

I trust myself, other people, especially those who feel it's ok to keep secrets about your children from you.
I'm sorry about what you experienced but abuse doesn't always happen in the home.

Hard for me to understand a parent abusing or neglecting a a child whatever the reality is. So my fear of the abuse of children at the hands of others is greater. I suspect this is the sentiment behind the bill.

Who do you trust more with your children? Yourself or a stranger. No great reason to trust either. I understand.

The important thing is the children and what is best varies from situation to situation.

I imagine it is as hard for you to see the risks I see as it is for me to understand your POV.

A better compromise one would hope.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Thirza Fallen said:
If a person wants counseling to be confidential, that has to be abided by. You can lose your license for things like that. Sometimes the parents do not have the best interests of their child in mind and can be detrimental in some cases.
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Abusive adults come on all flavors. Sometimes they are parents, sometimes they are school counselors.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I'm going to go further, in hope that you can engage something like understanding of what it's like to be different. Not to "want to be different," but just to be.

Those people who you just said do not exist are some of the most vulnerable people anywhere, those most likely to be considering suicide, those trying to find their way to navigate in a world full of people like you who either hate them or don't think they're even real people.

You might really try to take another look at yourself and your views about other people -- in light of the person you claim to follow when you label yourself "Christian," and who said "Judge not." And who also advocated something called "LOVE," which you might look into as well.
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Let me try to put a little nuance on that question. @RayofLight said they knew at an early age they didn't fit into either of the two more prevalent categories. Seems reasonable. My intuition / knowledge of childhood development and biology leads me to believe that until a child is through puberty - more or less - the odds are slim of them navigating the extremely complex LGBTQ landscape correctly.

So I think what an 8 year old child deduces accurately in such complex territory is unlikely, whereas an adolescent in their teens is far more likely to know what's going on, and a young person in their mid 20s even more likely.

And also, what's the rush for an 8 year child to make such a determination.

Adding @RayofLight in: If not fitting into categories had been acknowledged at an early age would you have felt some strong need to "find your category" at that age? And second, do you think you'd have gotten it right?
 
VoidCat

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
icehorse said:
Adding @RayofLight in: If not fitting into categories had been acknowledged at an early age would you have felt some strong need to "find your category" at that age? And second, do you think you'd have gotten it right?
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If someone had told me what nonbinary was when I was 7 instead of pushing aside my concerns I wouldve been much happier. Either way I wished back then I had the words to describe who I was so folks could understand and not dismiss it. I wouldn't have felt off like something was wrong with feeling that way. If I hadn't got it right it wouldn't matter. So long as I was able to be myself and explore my idenity freely which I wasn't able to as a kid.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I'm going to go further, in hope that you can engage something like understanding of what it's like to be different. Not to "want to be different," but just to be.

Those people who you just said do not exist are some of the most vulnerable people anywhere, those most likely to be considering suicide, those trying to find their way to navigate in a world full of people like you who either hate them or don't think they're even real people.

You might really try to take another look at yourself and your views about other people -- in light of the person you claim to follow when you label yourself "Christian," and who said "Judge not." And who also advocated something called "LOVE," which you might look into as well.
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Everyone is different. I was different as a child and teen, very shy, very quiet and socially awkward and prone to depression. So I know a lot about being different. But no little child is sexually mature enough to decide their sexually doesn't fit their sex.... and confusing them with adult ideas about it is abuse.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
icehorse said:
I've attached the actual bill to this post. The language is hard to parse no doubt. That seems standard for this sort of document.

What I'm wondering is why this bill is causing so much outrage? (As an aside, I'm expecting to be mis-categorized all sorts of ways as this thread moves forward :) )

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/Filed/PDF
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It's a reflection of the Pub's "culture wars" because they have so little to offer besides purely partisan politics. Heck, in 2020 they didn't even have a party platform for the election.

Also, DeSantis is being a Trump-a-like so he can maybe get the nomination if the Donald doesn't run.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Wildswanderer said:
Hateful? Hateful is imposing adult ideas about sexuality on innocents.
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People have crushes before they are adults. Kids know who they want as a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend", and it is innocent until after puberty. You do not want to understand. It's a waste of time to try to explain to you.
 
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D

David Young

Member
In answer to the original question, the legislation is causing outrage because of the idea that there are some areas of life that are not the business of a classroom teacher regarding children of certain ages.

I am a teacher myself, although most of my work is with adults and only a small proportion with children. I don't see a problem with the legislation. Teachers are paid to do some things and they are not paid to do some other things.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
David Young said:
In answer to the original question, the legislation is causing outrage because of the idea that there are some areas of life that are not the business of a classroom teacher regarding children of certain ages.

I am a teacher myself, although most of my work is with adults and only a small proportion with children. I don't see a problem with the legislation. Teachers are paid to do some things and they are not paid to do some other things.
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But what if a child asks a question along that line as the law puts forth that the teacher could get into trouble no matter how (s)he answered it, and that could extend beyond just the 3rd grade.

It's just partisan "culture wars" nonsense, so let's call it what it is.
 
ADigitalArtist

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
David Young said:
In answer to the original question, the legislation is causing outrage because of the idea that there are some areas of life that are not the business of a classroom teacher regarding children of certain ages.

I am a teacher myself, although most of my work is with adults and only a small proportion with children. I don't see a problem with the legislation. Teachers are paid to do some things and they are not paid to do some other things.
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The conflict as far as I can tell comes from the bill being poorly worded and vague. With weasel words like 'discussion of' 'age appropriate or developmentally appropriate' and other things would allow edge cases to be legally acted on, possibly even outside the given grades.
Like a teacher having a picture of their same sex spouse. Or having a book that even mentions a gay couple when it's perfectly accepted to have a straight one.
 
D

David Young

Member
Post # 57: The teacher simply needs to say that the question the child has asked is not one they are allowed to answer.

Then life goes on.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
David Young said:
Post # 57: The teacher simply needs to say that the question the child has asked is not one they are allowed to answer.

Then life goes on.
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So how is that some sort of solution? If a child asks a question, (s)he does it for a reason and deserves an answer. The teacher is supposed to be a teacher, not an enhancer of ignorance.

Again, it's just partisan political nonsense that one would expect in an authoritarian state.
 
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