For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Subduction Zone]

Probably not: see here.

Furthermore, to suggest that Israelite oral folk history was predominantly the result of a speculative event that presumably occurred four to six millennia earlier is a little outlandish and a lot unnecessary given, for example, the spring floods in the Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Yep, the Black Sea flood is a poor candidate. It was catastrophic for the towns in the area. Buildings can't move. People can. Though the amount of water water flowing in to the area seems huge, if one goes through the math the water itself advanced very slowly. Too fast to move a town, but so slow that one could have crawled away from it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians.....so was the flood a real event or was it just a dramatized myth with a message?

When I was a Christian, I accepted the story as factual. I did so by faith.

Did you notice the cranes in the lower left? This, of course, is Ken Ham's ark in rural Kentucky (US). He required many millions of dollars, thousands of laborers, and technology like cranes, metal braces, and metal fasteners presumably unavailable to Noah. Here's another picture:

And another. Notice the brick structures, metal scaffolding, the metal plates and bolts near the walking worker, and power tools:

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The myth of the Great Flood exists in many different religions, not just Judaism and Christianity. So the Flood itself is very likely a true event.

Wouldn't that make a global flood less likely? Why were there so many cultures still remaining to tell the story? If there was a flood the story of which was told by survivors to the races of people that formed subsequently, then the oldest flood story would be the most relevant, and leaves out Noah. The Sumerians and their global flood story antedates Noah.

I have a different hypothesis to account for so many global flood stories: Finding marine fossils on mountaintops. How did they get there? Today, we know that it is due to uplifting of sea floors. I would have thought it more likely that the water rose to submerge all dry land rather than the mountains rising from the sea.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

But as to the flood itself, when every surrounding culture has the story and the Black Sea shows us direct evidence of a massive flood the likes of which none had ever seen before...

You'd have to be uninformed of these things or willingly deceiving yourself to think the Flood part didn't happen. If nothing else in that story, the flood that inspired the stories was very much real.

I don't see a compelling argument there for a global flood submerging all dry land following forty days of rain. The wide ranging flood stories can be explained in other ways, and even rapid filling of the Black Sea doesn't match the Bible's story. What would that have done to an ark made only of wood and perhaps twine? Flooding occurs often in the world, and repeats in flood-prone regions. People living around the Nile or Tigris-Euphrates would be as use to subcatastrophic flooding as we are today. What would be the incentive to propose a global flood of unique proportion.

Yes, a flood occurred. Hundreds in fact. There is no reason to believe that there was a "THE flood"

This thread is for Christians so unless you have a miraculous conversion we would appreciate you going back to your own forums and leave this one alone...OK?

This is our forum as much as yours. You've mistaken it for a Christian DIR.

Besides, you wouldn't have much of a thread without us. I think you have about three Christians here, only one of which answered your question.

Sorry about your thread Just Accidental. It had a great run.

Why are there atheists on religious discussion forums anyway?

Probably to discuss religion, same as for Christians.

I still haven't seen an atheist yet tell us that he or she thinks that a global flood is possible, let alone occurred. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose that the only people that believe that story believe it by faith?

 

[Sanzbir]

I don't see a compelling argument there for a global flood submerging all dry land following forty days of rain.

Does anyone on this forum ever read comments they are replying too??

C'mon. I myself said only that I believed a flood happened that inspired the countless stories about it and I explicitly said I did not think it happened as legends about that event describe!! I'm not even Christian so I have no stake in it being literal truth.

And yet you come around and insist on replying to me as if I had said it happened as recorded in the book of Genesis when I pretty much explicitly stated I was not making that case!! It strikes me as rude.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians.....so was the flood a real event or was it just a dramatized myth with a message?

God commanded Noah: “Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree.”—Genesis 6:14.

Some might be familiar with children's storybook illustrations like this...

But what is exactly is an ark?

This ark was not a ship, as some assume. It had neither bow nor stern, keel nor rudder—no bends or curves. It was basically a great chest, or box.

More like this....

God gave Noah the precise dimensions of the ark, some details regarding its design, and directions to coat it inside and out with tar. And he told Noah why: “Here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth . . . Everything that is in the earth will expire.” However, Jehovah gave this direction to Noah: “You must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.” Noah was also to bring representatives of all kinds of animals. Only those aboard the ark could survive the coming Deluge!—Genesis 6:17-20.

Have we ever stopped to imagine the size of this vessel?
This replica built to Biblical specifications gives us some idea....

Noah faced a gigantic task. This ark was to be enormous—some 437 feet (133 m) long, 73 feet (22 m) wide, and 44 feet (13 m) tall. It was far larger than the largest seagoing wooden ships built even in modern times. Did Noah back off from this assignment, complain about its challenges, or alter the details to make it easier on himself? The Bible answers: “Noah proceeded to do according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.”—Genesis 6:22.

The work took decades, perhaps 40 to 50 years. There were trees to fell, logs to haul, and beams to hew, shape, and join. The ark was to have three stories, or decks, a number of compartments, and a door in the side. Evidently, there were windows along the top, as well as a roof that likely peaked in the middle with a slight pitch so that water would run off.—Genesis 6:14-16.

On completion of this assignment God told Noah....“Go, you and all your household, into the ark.” At the same time, God told Noah to take all the varieties of animals into the ark—by sevens in the case of the clean ones, fit for sacrificial use, and the rest by twos.—Genesis 7:1-3.

It is assumed by many that just two of every animas that God brought to Noah went on board the ark, but animals designated as "clean" (i.e. suitable for sacrifice and later for food) were taken in by sevens. That was three breeding pairs and one for sacrifice (which is what Noah did upon disembarking from the ark to thank his God for preserving his family alive through such a cataclysmic event.)

It must have been an unforgettable sight. From the horizon they streamed in by the hundreds—walking, flying, crawling, waddling, lumbering—all in a dizzying variety of sizes, shapes, and dispositions. We need not imagine poor Noah trying to corral, wrangle, or somehow cajole all those wild animals into entering the confined space of the ark. The account says that “they went in . . . to Noah inside the ark.”—Genesis 7:9.

And since dinosaurs were long extinct before man came on the scene, there were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Some skeptics might ask: ‘How could such a thing happen? And how could all those animals coexist peacefully in a confined space?’ Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed? Remember, Jehovah is the God who parted the Red Sea and made the sun stand still. Could he not carry out every event described in Noah’s account?

Excerpts from 2013 WATCHTOWER. Pics from Google

" Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed?"

The fact that God is supposed to be the all powerful creator of everything is what makes this story so silly to begin with. Why the heck would God need Noah to gather a pair of all of the animals in the world and stick them on a boat? Obviously this all powerful God could have flooded the entire world, wiped out all of the animals, and then as soon as the waters receded snapped his metaphorical fingers and created a new pair of every single animal species. According to Genesis this is something he could have done within a fraction of a single day. But instead He has Noah and his family labor for decades, not just to build a boat to save themselves, but one big enough for a pair of every single species. The story makes no sense.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Let me answer your last question first. Because we are here to help you to see the light.

In answer to your first question, why can't you treat my questions as if a Christian asked them? You will find that many Christians have the same beliefs which is why most do not accept the flood story. Like the rest of Genesis it is a morality tale about a man whose faith in God did not waver. It need not be taken literally. In fact the Bible never claims that it is to be taken literally. One again has to put one's own interpretation of verses taken out of context to even make that claim.

"Why are there atheists on religious discussion forums anyway?"

Because religious people are constantly trying to use their religion to influence the secular society that we live in.

 

[Sanzbir]

Probably not: see here.

Furthermore, to suggest that Israelite oral folk history was predominantly the result of a speculative event that presumably occurred four to six millennia earlier is a little outlandish and a lot unnecessary given, for example, the spring floods in the Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Not just Israelite, but a Assyrian and Babylonian and a whole host of other cultures.

To my knowledge, the river valley would not flood to the extent it would cause people to believe the whole world had flooded. The biggest archaeological record of a flood in that region that I can find with a search engine is ten feet deep. That's not really a level of flooding I could see of having inspired that many different myths throughout local oral histories about a worldwide flood. It's possible, I suppose, but I'd think the flood would have to be something more notable than ten feet, considering that river valley civilizations are fairly used to flooding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not just Israelite, but a Assyrian and Babylonian and a whole host of other cultures.

To my knowledge, the river valley would not flood to the extent it would cause people to believe the whole world had flooded. The biggest archaeological record of a flood in that region that I can find with a search engine is ten feet deep. That's not really a level of flooding I could see of having inspired that many different myths throughout local oral histories about a worldwide flood. It's possible, I suppose, but I'd think the flood would have to be something more notable than ten feet, considering that river valley civilizations are fairly used to flooding.

Actually if you were in a boat in the middle of that flood the Earth is both flat enough and the valley was wide enough so that at its peak you would only see water from horizon to horizon:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

". From these relationships, it can be seen that a tribal chief (or Noah) standing on the deck of a large boat (Ark), perhaps 7.8 meters above the water,would not be able to see the tops of any hills as high as 15 m from as little as 24 km away across flood plains covered with water because the curvature of the earth prevents it (See the Appendix for examples of calculations). Most hills in this region that are as much as 15 m high are more than 95 km away from the river levees. Therefore, the survivors of the Flood could see only water in all directions while they were floating down the Tigris River and over the flood plains. Many of these hills would also be partly covered with water which would make their tops project less above the water level, and therefore, the curvature of the earth would make them disappear from the line of sight in even a shorter distance than 24 km."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Excellent, Deeje! I knew you’d come through!

Here’s an excerpt from an article:

“Such an awesome catastrophe, if it really happened, would never have been completely forgotten. Hence, in many nations there are reminders of that destruction. Consider, for example, the precise date recorded in the Scriptures. The second month of the ancient calendar ran from what we now call mid-October to mid-November. So the 17th day corresponds approximately to the first of November. It may not be a coincidence, then, that in many lands, festivals for the dead are celebrated at that time of year.

Other evidences of the Deluge linger in mankind’s traditions. Practically all ancient peoples have a legend that their ancestors survived a global flood. African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas—all have similar legends, as do peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zealand, and parts of North America, to mention only a few.

Of course, over time the legends have been embellished, but they all include several details indicating a common source narrative: God was angered by mankind’s wickedness. He brought a great flood. Mankind as a whole was destroyed. A few righteous ones, however, were preserved. These built a vessel in which humans and animals were saved. In time, birds were sent out to search for dry land. Finally, the vessel came to rest on a mountain. Upon disembarking, the survivors offered a sacrifice.

What does this prove? The similarities cannot possibly be coincidental. The combined evidence of these legends corroborates the Bible’s ancient testimony that all humans descend from the survivors of a flood that destroyed a world of mankind. Hence, we do not need to rely on legends or myths to know what happened. We have the carefully preserved record in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible.—Genesis, chapters 6-8.”

From: A Whole World Destroyed! — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

As I get time, I’m going to post scientific evidences, from geologic, archaeologic, and more anthropological.

Thank you!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How do they deal with the fact that there is no evidence of that flood?

But there is! All kinds, from archaeologic: global burial sites of flash-frozen animals (found thruout Siberia and Alaska), etc..... to geologic: widely dispersed upright fossils extending through multiple strata, etc..... to anthropologic: uncannily similar Flood legends found even among land-locked populations, etc.

The ‘forest’ of data is there; unfortunately, too many only want to consider looking at the individual ‘trees’, and overlook the whole picture.

The difference between an open mind and a closed one.

 

[ChristineM]

This place has more atheists per area than there is sand on a beach per square meter. Ooops too late indeed.

I guess you have never counted sand grains in a square metre of beach.

Assuming only a single layer and given an average grain size of 0.1mm across that gives 100,000,000 grains of sand

I'm pretty sure RF has considerably less members than that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But there is! All kinds, from archaeologic: global burial sites of flash-frozen animals (found thruout Siberia and Alaska), etc..... to geologic: widely dispersed upright fossils extending through multiple strata, etc..... to anthropologic: uncannily similar Flood legends found even among land-locked populations, etc.

The ‘forest’ of data is there; unfortunately, too many only want to consider looking at the individual ‘trees’, and overlook the whole picture.

The difference between an open mind and a closed one.

No, there is all kinds of archaeological evidence of local floods, and amazingly ignorant misinterpretation of evidence by creationists. There is no evidence of a global flood.

By the way, there are no trees that extend through "multiple strata". Creationists do not know what a stratum is. "Polystrate trees" are merely upright trees that were fossilized in one strata. Trees can last for hundreds of years once they die.

And flood myths are not "uncannily similar" except for those in the Mideast, the Noah's Ark myth for example is merely a story from the epic of Gilgamesh adapted to the Hebrew mythos. There was a large flood in that area that could have easily inspired the myth. A large flood, but nowhere near being global.

 

[ChristineM]

But there is! All kinds, from archaeologic: global burial sites of flash-frozen animals (found thruout Siberia and Alaska), etc..... to geologic: widely dispersed upright fossils extending through multiple strata, etc..... to anthropologic: uncannily similar Flood legends found even among land-locked populations, etc.

The ‘forest’ of data is there; unfortunately, too many only want to consider looking at the individual ‘trees’, and overlook the whole picture.

The difference between an open mind and a closed one.

The biblical time period for Noah's flood,l according to Jewish scripture works out at approximately 3000bc.

Not long enough for fossils to form

What archaeological evidence? There is much evidence of local floods, none of any flood of biblical proportions, the closest was when the med burst through to the black sea, some 3000 years before the biblical story.

The animals found frozen in siberia dated well over 10k years before the biblical story.

Its all very well having open mind so so long as it doesn't distort the facts to fit a preconceived shape.

 

[Deeje]

Let me answer your last question first. Because we are here to help you to see the light

How does someone walk into a dark room and offer light to anyone? Jesus said that 'if the light in you is darkness, how great that darkness is'....I can only agree with him, as I do about many things.

In answer to your first question, why can't you treat my questions as if a Christian asked them?

You are an atheist. If a Christian asks them, I will happily answer.

You will find that many Christians have the same beliefs which is why most do not accept the flood story.

Let them ask. I have asked them myself and gained a great many satisfying answers.

It need not be taken literally. In fact the Bible never claims that it is to be taken literally. One again has to put one's own interpretation of verses taken out of context to even make that claim.

If Jesus and other Bible writers can refer to the man by name, then he is as real to me as Jesus is. If you don't want to believe then....don't.

Faith is a requirement for all Christians....if we had absolute evidence for all we believe then faith would not be necessary. I guess you could say we have as much real evidence for our beliefs as evolutionists have for theirs. If you accept evolution, then faith is required to believe what evolution cannot prove.

 

[Deeje]

Your question is the problem. It's not "just" a myth. A good mythology has meaning, even if the events spoken about never actually occurred in history. The story conveys meaning, so it's a myth. That doesn't mean the story is useless because there was no actual boat, or a Noah, or actual flood of the earth. Same with the story of Adam and Eve. It's a great myth that speaks many truths, through its fictional characters. This is the way a great many Christians think about these stories.

When the Bible writers were inspired to record their contributions to scripture, everything they wrote was "beneficial for teaching for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

When humans take it upon themselves to interpret scripture according to their own understanding, then that is when division begins to appear and unity goes out the window. Look at the state of the Christian faith and ask yourself how Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 1:10 apply?

And by the way, who is the "jury" in this comment of yours, "The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians." Is it you playing judge with other Christians? I don't think the jury is out for them.

The jury is all those who claim to be Bible believing Christians. Not all "speak in agreement"...do they?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does someone walk into a dark room and offer light to anyone? Jesus said that 'if the light in you is darkness, how great that darkness is'....I can only agree with him, as I do about many things.



You are an atheist. If a Christian asks them, I will happily answer.



Let them ask. I have asked them myself and gained a great many satisfying answers.



If Jesus and other Bible writers can refer to the man by name, then he is as real to me as Jesus is. If you don't want to believe then....don't.

Faith is a requirement for all Christians....if we had absolute evidence for all we believe then faith would not be necessary. I guess you could say we have as much real evidence for our beliefs as evolutionists have for theirs. If you accept evolution, then faith is required to believe what evolution cannot prove.

I am pretty sure that some Christians have brought up the same points that I have by now. They may not have been quite as blunt and open as I have been and ignoring my points just because I am now an atheist does not seem to be wise.

And so what if Jesus used a name? I can refer to Paul Bunyan in a talk on forestry. That does not imply that I believe that he actually existed. Once again Jesus used various literary tools quite often.

Lastly faith is not needed for accepting evolution. Do you need faith to accept gravity? Both are theories and facts. Both have been tested and confirmed countless times. You are merely projecting your sins upon others. But then creationists as a rule do not understand the nature of evidence. And most are afraid to even discuss the topic. Perhaps they already know that they are wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When the Bible writers were inspired to record their contributions to scripture, everything they wrote was "beneficial for teaching for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

Yes, and that verse means that if Genesis is merely a series of morality tools it is still "beneficial for ...." .

When humans take it upon themselves to interpret scripture according to their own understanding, then that is when division begins to appear and unity goes out the window. Look at the state of the Christian faith and ask yourself how Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 1:10 apply?



The jury is all those who claim to be Bible believing Christians. Not all "speak in agreement"...do they?

Everyone has to interpret the Bible according to their understanding. Some interpretations can be shown to be wrong. That is why I so often ask if a particular Christian's version of God is allowed to lie and if so how. The answer given usually puts the Noah's Ark story into the category of being a morality tale.

 

[David T]

Evidence says both

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yep, the Black Sea flood is a poor candidate. It was catastrophic for the towns in the area. Buildings can't move. People can. Though the amount of water water flowing in to the area seems huge, if one goes through the math the water itself advanced very slowly. Too fast to move a town, but so slow that one could have crawled away from it.

Pretending to know more than one in fact knows is unseemly:

1. There were not a lot of buildings to move back 7400 - 5600 BCE.
2. How fast the water was moving remains a matter of scientific debate, not fact.