For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[whirlingmerc]

It appears some of the science was more like putting lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig

During the infamous Scopes "Monkey Trial", Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man were mentioned in affidavits by "expert witnesses" Fay-Cooper Cole and Horatio Newman (professors at the University of Chicago), and Judge Raulston allowed their reports to be read into the court record on July 20, 1925.

"Illustrated London News published a two-page black and white drawing of Nebraska Man based on collaboration with Graftorn Elliot Smith of the British Natural History Museum. The drawing depicts Mr. and Mrs. Nebraska Man. They are stooped and naked, human in body and somewhat ape-like in face. . .A couple of months before the Scopes Trial, Henry Osborn wrote that Nebraska Man 'constitutes infinitesimal but irrefutable evidence that the man-ape wandered over from Asia into North America" (The Forum, May 1925)

"Two years after the 'Monkey Trial' [in Dayton, Tennessee, where Nebraska Man was extolled as the great evidence that man descended from apes],' a team of paleontologists returned to the Nebraska site where Hesperopithecus had been discovered five years earlier, determined to find more of this mysterious creature. To their joy, weathering had exposed parts of a jaw and skeleton on the precise spot. Eagerly, they brushed away dust and sand until the ancient fossil emerged to tell its truth--the infamous molar had once belong[ed] to an extinct pig!"--R Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 322

 

[Windwalker]

There is no reason to assume that it is mythology.....you can think that if you like, but if Jesus and other Bible writers made reference to Noah and the flood, then I have no reason to doubt it. It doesn't alter the lessons of the account.

I speak of Adam and Eve all the time. They speak to the truth of our humanity. It's a device of language to use fictional characters to speak truths. I don't believe they were historical people. Why do you assume Jesus did, just because he spoke of them, as I do? I think the real issue is that YOU do. I think that's a mistake.

 

[DavidFirth]

The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians.....so was the flood a real event or was it just a dramatized myth with a message?

God commanded Noah: “Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree.”—Genesis 6:14.

Some might be familiar with children's storybook illustrations like this...

But what is exactly is an ark?

This ark was not a ship, as some assume. It had neither bow nor stern, keel nor rudder—no bends or curves. It was basically a great chest, or box.

More like this....

God gave Noah the precise dimensions of the ark, some details regarding its design, and directions to coat it inside and out with tar. And he told Noah why: “Here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth . . . Everything that is in the earth will expire.” However, Jehovah gave this direction to Noah: “You must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.” Noah was also to bring representatives of all kinds of animals. Only those aboard the ark could survive the coming Deluge!—Genesis 6:17-20.

Have we ever stopped to imagine the size of this vessel?
This replica built to Biblical specifications gives us some idea....

Noah faced a gigantic task. This ark was to be enormous—some 437 feet (133 m) long, 73 feet (22 m) wide, and 44 feet (13 m) tall. It was far larger than the largest seagoing wooden ships built even in modern times. Did Noah back off from this assignment, complain about its challenges, or alter the details to make it easier on himself? The Bible answers: “Noah proceeded to do according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.”—Genesis 6:22.

The work took decades, perhaps 40 to 50 years. There were trees to fell, logs to haul, and beams to hew, shape, and join. The ark was to have three stories, or decks, a number of compartments, and a door in the side. Evidently, there were windows along the top, as well as a roof that likely peaked in the middle with a slight pitch so that water would run off.—Genesis 6:14-16.

On completion of this assignment God told Noah....“Go, you and all your household, into the ark.” At the same time, God told Noah to take all the varieties of animals into the ark—by sevens in the case of the clean ones, fit for sacrificial use, and the rest by twos.—Genesis 7:1-3.

It is assumed by many that just two of every animas that God brought to Noah went on board the ark, but animals designated as "clean" (i.e. suitable for sacrifice and later for food) were taken in by sevens. That was three breeding pairs and one for sacrifice (which is what Noah did upon disembarking from the ark to thank his God for preserving his family alive through such a cataclysmic event.)

It must have been an unforgettable sight. From the horizon they streamed in by the hundreds—walking, flying, crawling, waddling, lumbering—all in a dizzying variety of sizes, shapes, and dispositions. We need not imagine poor Noah trying to corral, wrangle, or somehow cajole all those wild animals into entering the confined space of the ark. The account says that “they went in . . . to Noah inside the ark.”—Genesis 7:9.

And since dinosaurs were long extinct before man came on the scene, there were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Some skeptics might ask: ‘How could such a thing happen? And how could all those animals coexist peacefully in a confined space?’ Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed? Remember, Jehovah is the God who parted the Red Sea and made the sun stand still. Could he not carry out every event described in Noah’s account?

Excerpts from 2013 WATCHTOWER. Pics from Google

The flood happened just as described in Genesis.

 

[Katzpur]

For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?
I believe the flood was as real as the Bible says it was, as real as 600 thousand Israelites walking across the Red Sea on dry ground. And as real as Jesus defeating death on the cross and rising three days later! And for those eyewitnesses that confirm the stories of Jesus and the stories of Moses, Noah and all of the other prophets in the Bible, so that we to can believe today! It just takes faith.

And I'll bet you have an answer as to where he found two penguins, two kangaroos, and -- let's not forget -- two baby dinosaurs.

 

[Deeje]

So question, if you don't take the 7 day thing literal doesn't that kind of apply to the flood 40 days and nights are not literal?

Unlike Genesis 1, there is no reason to doubt the literal 40 days and 40 nights to accomplish the flooding of the earth. Though I don't see how it matters.

The land mass could have experienced vast changes under the weight of such a volume of water, yet in the Genesis account of creation, the earth was at first covered with water and God made dry land appear. (Genesis 1:2, 9) If there were no high mountains on land and no deep valleys in the oceans then it may not have been too difficult to imagine water inundating the whole earth above the highest peaks.

Since God made dry land come up out of the water originally, what was to stop him altering earth's landscape again by making the mountains higher and the valleys deeper? The water had to go somewhere. The vast climatic changes that would have occurred by removing the water canopy would have exposed the earth to extremes heat and cold at the equator and at the poles. (Genesis 1:6-7)

There is a vast amount of water stored and suspended at the polar ice caps, which is why there is concern about climate change. If the polar regions melt, there is fear that the earth will again be flooded. Water was also used from within the earth itself which could well have gone back to where it originated.

Earth sciences all fly in the face of such a notion, not to mention that the flood story is a portrayal of another older story of Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh - Wikipedia

The Gilgamesh story is actually a reflection of the flood story and its details mesh in many areas. So, which came first?

The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient saga, thought to date back to the second millennium B.C.E., and describes a hero’s search for eternal youth. This Babylonian Epic mentions a flood, a ship, and survivors. Gilgamesh himself was described as a lustful, violent demigod, or part god, part man.

Since Babylon was built post-flood by Noah's great grandson Nimrod, it seems way more likely to me that a kernel of truth came from an actual event and was then embellished by those who retold the story heard from the survivors. The flood occurred almost 2,500 years BCE but Moses did not record Genesis until 1513 BCE.

"One of the four cities founded by Nimrod that formed “the beginning of his kingdom.” (Gensis 10:10)
Accad (Akkad) has been identified with the ancient city of Agade. The precise location is uncertain.


The name Akkad is also applied to the whole northern region of what later was called Babylonia. Akkad appears to have received prominence as the principal or royal city of that region under Sargon I (not the Sargon of Isa 20:1). The southern region of Mesopotamia was known as Sumer. Babylonia grew out of these two areas, and in Babylonian texts her rulers were still called “king of Akkad” down to the time of Babylon’s fall in 539 B.C.E. On the Cyrus Cylinder, Babylon’s conqueror takes over the title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad.” (Insight on the Scriptures Volume I)

From your link....
"The Gilgamesh story was written across the span of a millennium by no specific author but rather as a culmination of many different people adding their own part to the epic."

This is what humans do...they embellish and add their own details. Who could make up a story like that if there was no basis in fact? Even fictional stories have a basis in reality.

 

[blü 2]

There is a good video about the ark.

Utterly astonishing!

I'd always understood that at the end of the Flood, Noah sent out a dove ─ but as the video makes clear, it was a flying pig.

 

[Grandliseur]

Utterly astonishing!

I'd always understood that at the end of the Flood, Noah sent out a dove ─ but as the video makes clear, it was a flying pig.

Happy you had fun.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The myth of the Great Flood exists in many different religions, not just Judaism and Christianity. So the Flood itself is very likely a true event. The ark on the other hand seems a bit exaggerated - it would have been too big to construct and float and how would the few people (Noah's family?) manage so many animals and where did they get all the animals? Where there any kangaroos for instance?

You might find this study, completed by students of the University of Leicester, more than interesting, I did!

Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian
(Oops! I almost forgot!)

Plus, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6 to 1 ratio of length to width, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy.

How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such perfect ratios? Fortunate guessing?

It was through Divine inspiration!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Once again Jesus used various literary tools quite often.

Actually, I’m surprised you believe Jesus existed! I thought, in another thread, that you denied it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is a very human viewpoint and not in accord with scripture.
Why do you think that a powerful being did not just wipe out the infidels and just protect Noah? Why did he need to flood the world and destroy all life except for what was on a vessel?

To answer that question you have to understand what circumstances led him to do that. Rebel spirit beings, materialised human form and cohabited with "the daughters of men", whom they found attractive, according to Genesis ch6...."all whom they chose".

Since spirit beings are A-sexual, this was an unnatural mating that produced freakish hybrid creatures that were gigantic in size and violent in nature.....and obsessed with sex. These were not "sons of Adam" but humans who had no right to exist. In that environment, wickedness escalated to an excessive degree so in order to keep his purpose on track, God had the only righteous family in existence take the necessary steps to save themselves. In doing so they gave us many examples of why it is necessary to put all our faith in God and not in man.

In doing things the way he did, God showed all of us that sometimes we have to put in extraordinary effort to obey him. Yet God provided the means to carry out all that he asked Noah to do.

The construction would likely have taken decades, but all Noah had to do was follow God's instructions to the letter.
On completion, it was God who brought the animals to the ark, meaning that he personally chose the specimens he wanted to form the nucleus of the post-flood world.

The end result saw a cleansed earth with a new beginning, and God's purpose for the human race re-established. What happened post flood proves that it was only a stop gap measure to prevent wickedness from escalating too quickly. Things are happening now exactly as God said they would, as he brings the object lesson to its ultimate conclusion. But are most humans learning the lesson? Apparently not.

So at the end of the day, we have to ask...."is anything impossible for God? And is anything backed up by the Creator of the universe too difficult for man?" This is what Noah's story teaches us. Jesus used it as an example of what is to come. Another thorough cleansing of this earth is due, but this time it will not be by water. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Really, human living conditions before the Flood, as you just recounted, @Deeje, were what the post diluvian Greek, Roman, Norse, etc., myths about their gods was all about....the gods coming down and sleeping with women, producing offspring, like Hercules! (Although Hercules, according to myth, was a good guy.)

Because of the fact that these ancient myths actually call these ones “gods” tells us that the humans back then knew that these ones came down from another realm, as the angels, ie., sons of God (Genesis 6:1-4), actually did.

No wonder Jehovah stepped in! We should be thankful!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But this is nonsense.

No, it isn’t. Unity of thought is one step that leads to peace between members.

All humans interpret everything they read, including scripture. And since when is uniformity in thoughts and ideas a definition of unity? Unity requires differences. Uniformity requires you all think and believe, and interpret exactly 100% the same. It eliminates differences, not unite them. If you don't understand anything else, understand that.

I’d rather understand the Scriptures, the way the writers intended. It is indeed harmonious, when one is taught what the writers of it, meant.

If you are expecting a church that has no divisions in thought, you're going to land in a cult.

Then the first-century Christians were a cult. — 1 Corinthians 1:10 (again); 1 Peter 3:8
Oh, they had their preferences of likes and dislikes no doubt, and their own opinions regarding secular pursuits, but when it came to spiritual beliefs, they were united! At least, as long as the Apostles were alive....


That was pretty good company, back then!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Evolution OTOH, is not provable by any scientific method that demonstrates beyond question that what science assumes to have taken place in the dim dark past, is actually true.

Imagine how your standard applies to Christianity. It devastates it: It is not provable by any method whatsoever that demonstrates beyond question that what the Bible assumes to have taken place in the dim dark past is actually true.

The creative periods were eons, not just days.

They were in days. The scripture is clear about that. Its authors knew nothing of eons. The days of creation are intended as literal days, which is why the writer went out of his way to indicate that each had a sunrise and a sunset: "Evening passed and morning came—that was the first day"

To Bible believers though, we have reason to doubt what man says when it conflicts with what God says

The rest of us have reason to doubt what man says in the Bible when it conflicts with what reason and evidence say.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I speak of Adam and Eve all the time. They speak to the truth of our humanity. It's a device of language to use fictional characters to speak truths. I don't believe they were historical people. Why do you assume Jesus did, just because he spoke of them, as I do? I think the real issue is that YOU do. I think that's a mistake.

A real-life Adam and Eve, and the choices they made as recorded in the Bible, is the entire reason Jesus came to Earth.... giving the value of His perfect human life to God, in our behalf, because that is what Adam lost; and, as our progenitor, also lost for us....perfect human life. — Romans 5:12

 

[Deeje]

Imagine how your standard applies to Christianity. It devastates it: It is not provable by any method whatsoever that demonstrates beyond question that what the Bible assumes to have taken place in the dim dark past is actually true.

They were in days. The scripture is clear about that. Its authors knew nothing of eons. The days of creation are intended as literal days, which is why the writer went out of his way to indicate that each had a sunrise and a sunset: "Evening passed and morning came—that was the first day"

The rest of us have reason to doubt what man says in the Bible when it conflicts with what reason and evidence say.

Sorry not biting. Been down that road too many times.... YAWN.

You can believe whatever you like.

This is supposed to be a discussion not a debate. I invited Christians to this thread to discuss a topic that is interesting to us. I have no interest in arguing with you. I came here for a break from the arguments.

Next time I will post in the Christian DIR though I was interested in what people of other faiths might have to say.
Flood legends are widespread and I thought they may have something of interest to add.

 

[ChristineM]

You actually did the math! Funny indeed.

Isn't exaggeration what makes things seem funny?! As in, "It rained cats and dogs." (I hope not)

If you are going to make ridiculous comments don't be surprised if someone provides facts.

It has rained cats and dogs just a week ago, i put my foot in a poodle.

 

[Grandliseur]

It has rained cats and dogs just a week ago, i put my foot in a poodle.

Never heard the poodle before. That's rich.

 

[Grandliseur]

The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians.....so was the flood a real event or was it just a dramatized myth with a message?

God commanded Noah: “Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree.”—Genesis 6:14.

Some might be familiar with children's storybook illustrations like this...

But what is exactly is an ark?

This ark was not a ship, as some assume. It had neither bow nor stern, keel nor rudder—no bends or curves. It was basically a great chest, or box.

More like this....

God gave Noah the precise dimensions of the ark, some details regarding its design, and directions to coat it inside and out with tar. And he told Noah why: “Here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth . . . Everything that is in the earth will expire.” However, Jehovah gave this direction to Noah: “You must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.” Noah was also to bring representatives of all kinds of animals. Only those aboard the ark could survive the coming Deluge!—Genesis 6:17-20.

Have we ever stopped to imagine the size of this vessel?
This replica built to Biblical specifications gives us some idea....

Noah faced a gigantic task. This ark was to be enormous—some 437 feet (133 m) long, 73 feet (22 m) wide, and 44 feet (13 m) tall. It was far larger than the largest seagoing wooden ships built even in modern times. Did Noah back off from this assignment, complain about its challenges, or alter the details to make it easier on himself? The Bible answers: “Noah proceeded to do according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.”—Genesis 6:22.

The work took decades, perhaps 40 to 50 years. There were trees to fell, logs to haul, and beams to hew, shape, and join. The ark was to have three stories, or decks, a number of compartments, and a door in the side. Evidently, there were windows along the top, as well as a roof that likely peaked in the middle with a slight pitch so that water would run off.—Genesis 6:14-16.

On completion of this assignment God told Noah....“Go, you and all your household, into the ark.” At the same time, God told Noah to take all the varieties of animals into the ark—by sevens in the case of the clean ones, fit for sacrificial use, and the rest by twos.—Genesis 7:1-3.

It is assumed by many that just two of every animas that God brought to Noah went on board the ark, but animals designated as "clean" (i.e. suitable for sacrifice and later for food) were taken in by sevens. That was three breeding pairs and one for sacrifice (which is what Noah did upon disembarking from the ark to thank his God for preserving his family alive through such a cataclysmic event.)

It must have been an unforgettable sight. From the horizon they streamed in by the hundreds—walking, flying, crawling, waddling, lumbering—all in a dizzying variety of sizes, shapes, and dispositions. We need not imagine poor Noah trying to corral, wrangle, or somehow cajole all those wild animals into entering the confined space of the ark. The account says that “they went in . . . to Noah inside the ark.”—Genesis 7:9.

And since dinosaurs were long extinct before man came on the scene, there were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Some skeptics might ask: ‘How could such a thing happen? And how could all those animals coexist peacefully in a confined space?’ Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed? Remember, Jehovah is the God who parted the Red Sea and made the sun stand still. Could he not carry out every event described in Noah’s account?

Excerpts from 2013 WATCHTOWER. Pics from Google

I have another video that I recommend, it is about the Exodus, very good with lots of goodies for believers:

 

[Windwalker]

No, it isn’t. Unity of thought is one step that leads to peace between members.

No. Unity of thought in the sense you mean it is uniformity of thought. You can't have "unity" unless there is diversity. And the important point is that it does not lead to actual peace between members. It leads to the illusion of peace because of getting rid of diversity. Uniformity is done by force. Unity is done by love, bringing together individuals in harmony with the different notes of their own songs. Marching in lockstep means all individuality is removed. A lack of open warfare is not peace. It's oppression.

I’d rather understand the Scriptures, the way the writers intended. It is indeed harmonious, when one is taught what the writers of it, meant.

This too is a fallacy. You cannot fully understand what the other intended, no matter how good of an interpreter you imagine yourself to be. Everyone will always, without exception, interpret another's words through the filters of their own mind. And those filters depend on a very complex set of variables, such as one spiritual growth, general maturity, cultural expectations, etc. You reading a passage at age five for instance, will have a very different meaning than it will when you read it 30 years later! The scripture was just there, static and doing nothing, until you as a reader translate it into your life for where you are at at that time, and again for where you are at later on, and again and again. It's always your understanding, not the original author's ideas, whatever those may have actually been for them.

Then the first-century Christians were a cult. — 1 Corinthians 1:10 (again); 1 Peter 3:8

Not in the sense I stated it, meaning forcing people to all think one way, read one way, speak one way, etc. Those are the cults like which strip individuals of the uniqueness, to bring them under the power of a single leader, or authoritative group, engaging in practices of shunning to force conformity through fear. That was not early Christianity, though it certainly would have arisen in places since wherever there is a group of people, power vacuums begin to exist to be filled by those who seek power over others.

Oh, they had their preferences of likes and dislikes no doubt, and their own opinions regarding secular pursuits, but when it came to spiritual beliefs, they were united! At least, as long as the Apostles were alive....

First of all, "spiritual beliefs", seems a bit of an oxymoron to me! Beliefs about spirituality, are not the same thing as actual spirituality, which is "beyond beliefs". Don't mistake doctrinal statements and theological views as "spirituality". They are not. They are religious beliefs. Someone can in fact have a wide range of beliefs, yet be equally spiritual with another. And that is something these modern cults who claim to be the one true religion have in common. Their "spirituality" is actually just a collection of religious beliefs, and not actual spirituality that leads to Unity, bringing together with the heart that sees past differences of beliefs.

Read this passage to see if you can see that at play here: 1 Corinthians 8 NIV You will notice how Paul is not forcing people to all think the same, but instead to embrace the differences of beliefs, held in the unity of Love? That's spirituality, not some cult who all think the same religiously together.

 

[Windwalker]

A real-life Adam and Eve, and the choices they made as recorded in the Bible, is the entire reason Jesus came to Earth.... giving the value of His perfect human life to God, in our behalf, because that is what Adam lost; and, as our progenitor, also lost for us....perfect human life. — Romans 5:12

Why would they have to be literal humans, and not figurative examples of the human condition for which people seek redemption from the suffering we experience? There's no reason they had to be historical, in order for them to be true symbolically.

Jesus could speak of them symbolically in the same way I do, and no meaning be lost. Do you not see that the truth of something is greater than the thing in itself, that the object we attach meaning to, is not the meaning itself? We are all Adam and Eve. They are us.

 

[Sanzbir]

I somehow got the impression that the subject was the flood of Genesis. My bad.

Yes. If you had read my post you would know my thoughts on the subject were "I don't trust the specific record in the book, but I don't doubt an actual flood inspired the legends of the flood in the Hebrew and other cultures in the area."

But you chose not to read my post and chose to reply from a place of ignorance tilting at some fundy-Christian strawman you invented for yourself to fight. Why do you chose not to read someone's post before commenting?? Seriously, I don't understand people like you: why do you just assume people's positions without reading their posts and then issue forth posts making you look like a complete idiot for not taking the 20 seconds necessary to read a post but feeling like you can comment on it anyways??