For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Subduction Zone]

The Decalogue is often referred to as the Ten Commandments but that does Not mean there were only ten.
The Constitution of the Mosaic Law contract has about 613 commandments of which the first ten are part of those 600 plus commandments.

That was a dodge and indicates that you are afraid to answer a reasonable question.

Can you p!ease try again and answer the question?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Ah yes... it's the The God of the OT is somehow NOT the God of the NT argument. As if Jesus came along and suddenly made all of the highly immoral practices condoned by the OT God inconsequential.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So, wait a minute here. This sounds rather absurd. First of all, people who don't believe in God(s) couldn't possibly wish to remove him/them from their 'rightful position as Creator" because they don't believe God(s) exist in the first place and therefore wouldn't hold any position anywhere.

Secondly, what you appear to be saying here is that you accept most of science, except when it comes into conflict with your personal beliefs about God, and at that point you reject it.

And thirdly, you appear to be saying that it's only scientists in the particular fields in which you don't accept the science (even though evolutionary science is drawn from multiple different fields of science) whose ultimate goal is to kill God. Computer scientists for instance, have no particular interest in killing God(s), but you believe that scientists who study evolution have a deep interest in doing so. And conveniently enough, that is the part of science that you don't accept, because it conflicts with your personal beliefs.

And you want to claim that it is scientists who are being dishonest?


Oh I get it. You're against science when you feel it conflicts with your personal beliefs about God.

No, you don't get it.

What I "appear to be saying"? Why not just state, "What youre saying is....."?

"First of all, people who don't believe in God(s) couldn't possibly wish to remove him/them from their 'rightful position as Creator" because they don't believe God(s) exist in the first place and therefore wouldn't hold any position anywhere."

Where did I say anything about that? Beliefs don't change, one iota, what reality is.
Beliefs only affect motivations behind actions -- and, vice versa, at times.
What people want to believe, and what people want to do.

Most today don't want to believe it, but the Bible is about the only book that provides excellent counsel on controlling our sexual desires....this benefits society in the long run: it cuts down on diseases, and helps to build strong families.

There are so many lines of evidence that the Bible comes from a divine source! I'm just glad I (and others on here) appreciate it.

 

[Deeje]

I'll tell you what's wrong with this picture. Human beings today are more moral than your God was all those thousands of years ago. We've progressed, God apparently has not.

I'll be sure to pass that memo along.....

I am sure that he is just waiting to hear your opinion about how moral people are today....

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Eve knew she was to be ' God governed ' but deliberately decided she wanted to be ' self governed '. Eve wanted to be a ' goddess ' in choosing for herself what was right and what was wrong in her own eyes.

People want autonomy to be free to pursue happiness, and they deserve it. Most of the animal kingdom has it as well. It's the natural state of being, and what you are calling wanting to be a goddess (or god)

The basic message of the Bible is, as you indicate here, to submit to authority, in this case, to the authority of those writing through the literary device of a god. Even where the Bible says to love one another, it is commanded under penalty of punishment if disobedient.

Who gets to decide what is right and wrong? You?

We all do. That's also part of the autonomy I just mentioned. That doesn't mean that there might not be legal or social consequences, but you are free to decide what is right and wrong for you, unless of course, you let others decide for you. perhaps by referring you to a book and telling you that you commanded to adopt such-and-such values under threat of punishment.

And as you have seen on this thread, we are free to judge the character of all persons living, dead, or fictitious, including gods.

Hilarious! You get to dictate morality to the one who gave you that faculty in the first place?

No, we get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, and have no reason to believe that any such god exists to take orders passed on through intemediaries.

Nor do we have any reason to believe that our moral compass didn't rise naturalistically through biological evolution, nor that our moral theory hasn't more recently been evolving culturally as is clearly evident even in the Christian holy book between the Old and New Testaments, for example. We see the angry, vengeful, and harshly judgmental god of the Old Testament evolve into the gentler god of the New Testament.

And our collective moral values have evolved past that as well since then, as you have seen in the slavery and rape discussion on this thread.

I find at Deuteronomy 22:23-27 that a man was to be 'put to death' (executed) for raping.

The scripture falls short of condemning the act of rape except under specific circumstances. It's only illegal if the damsel is betrothed, and the act carried out in the field as opposed to the city as described in the immediately previous verses:

"if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."

All of Deuteronomy 22 seems to be about Hebrews interacting among themselves - what they can do to one another. Given how the god of the Old Testament is not averse to commanding the rape of some outsiders, I'm assuming that it is OK to rape any non-Hebrews.

 

[74x12]

We all do. That's also part of the autonomy I just mentioned. That doesn't mean that there might not be legal or social consequences, but you are free to decide what is right and wrong for you, unless of course, you let others decide for you. perhaps by referring you to a book and telling you that you commanded to adopt such-and-such values under threat of punishment.

And as you have seen on this thread, we are free to judge the character of all persons living, dead, or fictitious, including gods.

So you're saying you should decide what's right and wrong based off your own opinion. Who decides though between two people which opinion is right when there is disagreement?

To cut to the chase. It's nonsensical (in that case) to judge God of wrong doing when (hypothetically) God's viewpoint is just as valid as your own. If not more so.

 

[Jose Fly]

No, you don't get it..

Well look who's back. So are you going to pick up where we left off, or are you going to do as you've done so many times before, where you make accusations but when asked to back them up just walk away and hope everyone forgets?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So you're saying you should decide what's right and wrong based off your own opinion.

Yes. Who else's opinion would I use?

Who decides though between two people which opinion is right when there is disagreement?

Regarding moral judgments, they each do for themselves. They may or might not ever come to agreement.

To cut to the chase. It's nonsensical (in that case) to judge God of wrong doing when (hypothetically) God's viewpoint is just as valid as your own. If not more so.

How is it nonsensical to find any god immoral? Why should it matter to me what a god I don't believe in exists is said to think? Do you want to discuss what Allah's values are for us? Or Thor's? I ignore all of that, and I'll bet that you do as well with the exception of one god to whom you have have chosen to give a different status. I haven't, which is why I view that god the same way that we both view and judge all other gods.

Imagine if we were having this discussion about Wodin, with me defending his honor, you claiming that He doesn't exist, and you judging Him adversely, and me eventually making the comment you did - it's nonsensical for you to judge Wodin adversely when (hypothetically) His viewpoint is just as valid as your if not more so.

So what, right? We're both still going to make those judgments.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well look who's back. So are you going to pick up where we left off, or are you going to do as you've done so many times before, where you make accusations but when asked to back them up just walk away and hope everyone forgets?

Oh yeah, you're the one who asked for evidence indicating that you wish to remove Jehovah from his position as Creator....you really think that is worth a reply? I didn't. The evidence is obvious....it's all throughout your posts, for anyone to read. Be assured, Jehovah's seen it, too.

And then there's your little twist to my words where i say that we as JW's refuse to acknowledge any science that refuses to recognize Jehovah's Godship. But you ask, 'what sciences acknowledge Jehovah's Godship?

If you can't figure out what I meant...then it's a fruitless endeavor to continue discussion with you.

Do you see any supporters of the Creator taking issue with astronomy, or geology, or medicine, or archeology? No...these science branches dont specifically deny God in these aspects. In fact, I enjoy all four of these fields...and other fields, too.

But CD evultion specifically denies Jehovah.
Do you get it now?

I will not be replying to your posts on this thread anymore... As I stated, this was off-topic to the thread's subject.

"Walk away"....LOL!

 

[74x12]

Yes. Who else's opinion would I use?



Regarding moral judgments, they each do for themselves. They may or might not ever come to agreement.



How is it nonsensical to find any god immoral? Why should it matter to me what a god I don't believe in exists is said to think? Do you want to discuss what Allah's values are for us? Or Thor's? I ignore all of that, and I'll bet that you do as well with the exception of one god to whom you have have chosen to give a different status. I haven't, which is why I view that god the same way that we both view and judge all other gods.

Imagine if we were having this discussion about Wodin, with me defending his honor, you claiming that He doesn't exist, and you judging Him adversely, and me eventually making the comment you did - it's nonsensical for you to judge Wodin adversely when (hypothetically) His viewpoint is just as valid as your if not more so.

So what, right? We're both still going to make those judgments.

If Woden was real then I would view him a whole new way. So that is the whole point of saying or asking anything "hypothetically".

 

[QuestioningMind]

I think you know there was No slavery in Eden.
I think you can reason slavery would have never existed if mankind had not fallen into sin's imperfection.
Unlike surrounding nations, Israel was never in the slave-trade business as the U.S. southern south was.
Since there were No jails a person could be in slavery for six years to pay off debts and be treated as hired help - Leviticus 25:39-40. Leviticus 19:33-37 also tells us how strangers were to be treated.
I wonder what you find wrong with the ' Jubilee Year '

Who cares if there was slavery in Eden? Doesn't change the fact that God very clearly condones owning other people as property. Isn't God supposed to be correcting us and leading us in the right direction?

Funny you mentioned how they were supposed to only keep fellow Hebrews as slaves for just six years, but failed to mention how God said it's perfectly okay to own non-Hebrews for their entire lives and can even pass then on to your sons when you die. It even says it's perfectly okay to beat your slaves, just as long as they don't die from the beating within a couple of days.

So God is SUPPOSED to be the moral authority, yet He doesn't see anything wrong with the horrible immoral practice of owning others as property. Doesn't sound like much a a moral authority to me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I don't know of any eye witnesses to the non-Hebrew slavery as to how they were treated.
What passages do you have in mind as was carried out in the Old South.

What passages do you have that suggests that somehow people thousands of years ago treated slaves better that we did just a couple hundred years ago?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We've progressed, God apparently has not.

I think maybe He has, too... "Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger... But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another" (Ephesians 4:31-32); "With all humility, consider others as superior to you" (Philippians 2:3); "Continue loving your enemies" (Matthew 5:44). Well whaddya know!

 

[Subduction Zone]

What passages do you have that suggests that somehow people thousands of years ago treated slaves better that we did just a couple hundred years ago?

I answered that for him with specific verses that showed that Biblical slavery was just as had or worse than U.S. slavery. I did not get a response after that.

 

[Deeje]

No, we get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, and have no reason to believe that any such god exists to take orders passed on through intemediaries.

It is my belief that you are given that right to decide as you wish.....for now.
It is the exercise of free will that got us into this mess. Humans are lousy at deciding what is right or wrong for themselves.

Nor do we have any reason to believe that our moral compass didn't rise naturalistically through biological evolution, nor that our moral theory hasn't more recently been evolving culturally as is clearly evident even in the Christian holy book between the Old and New Testaments, for example. We see the angry, vengeful, and harshly judgmental god of the Old Testament evolve into the gentler god of the New Testament.

Its an interesting faculty, conscience....it arises out of an inbuilt sense of right and wrong. How did humans get to know what is right or wrong? Who told us? Why do we alone possess a sense of morality? It is fair to say that I have never seen any other species exercise this faculty like we do. How do you explain it?

How do you explain our unique ability to write music and make and play an infinite variety of musical instruments?
How come we can communicate with our voice, our body language and the written word.....who thought up the alphabet? We can also communicate visually via the internet. We just evolved that sort of intelligence?

What place does poetry or theater have in any survival advantage for us? It is so amazing to me that the most obvious thing in the world is that humans are unique in so many ways....no animals comes close to exercising our abilities and to demonstrating how we use our intellect to foresee the future and consciously plan for it......all these 'accidents of nature' look planned to me.

As for the God of the Bible...if you knew what you are talking about, you would see he doesn't really change at all when it comes to exercising his justice.

“It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8)

The end times will see a demonstration of God's power, the likes of which have never been witnessed before.

You ain't seen nothing yet....

No one will be able to say we didn't try to warn you.

And our collective moral values have evolved past that as well since then, as you have seen in the slavery and rape discussion on this thread.

Oh, the old 'slavery and rape' chestnut?

Different times, different cultures and a completely different set of circumstances.....nothing that is seen today or even in Jesus' day....so what is your gripe. Is there some teaching of Jesus Christ that says its OK to exploit your fellow man/woman in any way? We are told to even 'love our enemies'......seriously. Where do humans get off thinking that can judge the one who gave them their sensibilities in the first place?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is the exercise of free will that got us into this mess.

This is the great deception of Christianity, which purpose appears to be to get the masses to submit to the commands of a priesthood speaking as if they are communicating a god's will.

Nobody laments free will like Christians. Nobody demeans it like Christians. That is the basis of the Garden story and why it was written - two young people exercised free will and they and all of their offspring were condemned for it. Be forewarned.

The whole heaven and hell thing is all about submission and obedience to commandments.

Man's nature is to be an autonomous agent, a situation Christianity abhors and demeans by describing in derogatory language such as being in rebellion or wanting to be a god.

Humans are lousy at deciding what is right or wrong for themselves.

Not me, not my wife, and not most of the people I know.

Are you referring to yourself? Have you made bad decision after bad decision? You chose to be a Jehovah's Witness? Are you including that?

Its an interesting faculty, conscience....it arises out of an inbuilt sense of right and wrong. How did humans get to know what is right or wrong? Who told us? Why do we alone possess a sense of morality? It is fair to say that I have never seen any other species exercise this faculty like we do. How do you explain it?

Nobody told us what was right or wrong but ourselves.

The beasts exhibit moral behavior, the difference being that it is not as evolved, and it is not accompanied by symbolic (linguistic) thought. It is a product of biological evolution, and in man, cultural evolution. There is no reason to evoke gods.

As for the God of the Bible...if you knew what you are talking about, you would see he doesn't really change at all when it comes to exercising his justice.

As for the god of the Bible, if you weren't wearing a faith based confirmation bias, you would see how dramatically the god of the New Testament differs from the one of the Old Testament.

Oh, the old 'slavery and rape' chestnut?

That's a huge moral failing that doesn't go away just because you are tired of reading about it.

Different times, different cultures and a completely different set of circumstances

Yes, I know, and that is one more way that I know that the Bible is written by people who evolve over time, and not a timeless, unchanging god.

And if another testament is added in a few centuries, it will reflect those times and the progress made since the second one. I would expect explicit prohibitions against slavery and rape by then, and maybe a few words about democracy and human rights.

Where do humans get off thinking that can judge the one who gave them their sensibilities in the first place?

It's that pesky free will.

Add in skepticism about gods existing.

 

[Jose Fly]

Oh yeah, you're the one who asked for evidence indicating that you wish to remove Jehovah from his position as Creator....you really think that is worth a reply? I didn't. The evidence is obvious....it's all throughout your posts, for anyone to read. Be assured, Jehovah's seen it, too.

Apparently the evidence is so obvious, you can't even point to one single piece of it.

And then there's your little twist to my words where i say that we as JW's refuse to acknowledge any science that refuses to recognize Jehovah's Godship. But you ask, 'what sciences acknowledge Jehovah's Godship?

If you can't figure out what I meant...then it's a fruitless endeavor to continue discussion with you.

Another dodge. Very telling.

Do you see any supporters of the Creator taking issue with astronomy, or geology, or medicine, or archeology? No...these science branches dont specifically deny God in these aspects. In fact, I enjoy all four of these fields...and other fields, too.

But CD evultion specifically denies Jehovah.
Do you get it now?

But you can't show a single instance where any published paper within evolutionary biology does what you describe. IOW, it's nothing more than another empty accusation.

I will not be replying to your posts on this thread anymore... As I stated, this was off-topic to the thread's subject.

"Walk away"....LOL!

I don't blame ya. If I was in your place, I'd dodge and run away too. That's what creationism forces its advocates to do.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It is my belief that you are given that right to decide as you wish.....for now.
It is the exercise of free will that got us into this mess. Humans are lousy at deciding what is right or wrong for themselves.



Its an interesting faculty, conscience....it arises out of an inbuilt sense of right and wrong. How did humans get to know what is right or wrong? Who told us? Why do we alone possess a sense of morality? It is fair to say that I have never seen any other species exercise this faculty like we do. How do you explain it?

How do you explain our unique ability to write music and make and play an infinite variety of musical instruments?
How come we can communicate with our voice, our body language and the written word.....who thought up the alphabet? We can also communicate visually via the internet. We just evolved that sort of intelligence?

What place does poetry or theater have in any survival advantage for us? It is so amazing to me that the most obvious thing in the world is that humans are unique in so many ways....no animals comes close to exercising our abilities and to demonstrating how we use our intellect to foresee the future and consciously plan for it......all these 'accidents of nature' look planned to me.

As for the God of the Bible...if you knew what you are talking about, you would see he doesn't really change at all when it comes to exercising his justice.

“It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8)

The end times will see a demonstration of God's power, the likes of which have never been witnessed before.

You ain't seen nothing yet....

No one will be able to say we didn't try to warn you.



Oh, the old 'slavery and rape' chestnut?

Different times, different cultures and a completely different set of circumstances.....nothing that is seen today or even in Jesus' day....so what is your gripe. Is there some teaching of Jesus Christ that says its OK to exploit your fellow man/woman in any way? We are told to even 'love our enemies'......seriously. Where do humans get off thinking that can judge the one who gave them their sensibilities in the first place?

\

"Where do humans get off thinking that can judge the one who gave them their sensibilities in the first place? "

Uh, by reading the actual words in the bible that you claim is God's law. If God didn't want us to judge that God condones slavery, God should NEVER have allowed the parts of Exodus that very clearly accepts and allows for immoral slavery to be included in His bible. So either accept that not everything in the bible is actually God's word (if any of it) or agree that your God is a less moral being that the majority of people living today.

 

[Subduction Zone]

\

"Where do humans get off thinking that can judge the one who gave them their sensibilities in the first place? "

Uh, by reading the actual words in the bible that you claim is God's law. If God didn't want us to judge that God condones slavery, God should NEVER have allowed the parts of Exodus that very clearly accepts and allows for immoral slavery to be included in His bible. So either accept that not everything in the bible is actually God's word (if any of it) or agree that your God is a less moral being that the majority of people living today.

Yep, a God that could take the time to essentially ban polyester but could not take the time to say "Hey! People shouldn't own other people!"

And to boot this God could see that it was immoral to hold male Hebrews as slaves for the rest of their lives (unless one tricked him into giving up that right) and could not see that it was immoral to hold other people as slaves for the rest of their lives.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

People want autonomy to be free to pursue happiness, and they deserve it. Most of the animal kingdom has it as well. It's the natural state of being, and what you are calling wanting to be a goddess (or god)
The basic message of the Bible is, as you indicate here, to submit to authority, in this case, to the authority of those writing through the literary device of a god. Even where the Bible says to love one another, it is commanded under penalty of punishment if disobedient.
We all do. That's also part of the autonomy I just mentioned. That doesn't mean that there might not be legal or social consequences, but you are free to decide what is right and wrong for you, unless of course, you let others decide for you. perhaps by referring you to a book and telling you that you commanded to adopt such-and-such values under threat of punishment.
And as you have seen on this thread, we are free to judge the character of all persons living, dead, or fictitious, including gods.
No, we get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, and have no reason to believe that any such god exists to take orders passed on through intemediaries.
Nor do we have any reason to believe that our moral compass didn't rise naturalistically through biological evolution, nor that our moral theory hasn't more recently been evolving culturally as is clearly evident even in the Christian holy book between the Old and New Testaments, for example. We see the angry, vengeful, and harshly judgmental god of the Old Testament evolve into the gentler god of the New Testament.
And our collective moral values have evolved past that as well since then, as you have seen in the slavery and rape discussion on this thread.
The scripture falls short of condemning the act of rape except under specific circumstances. It's only illegal if the damsel is betrothed, and the act carried out in the field as opposed to the city as described in the immediately previous verses:
"if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."
All of Deuteronomy 22 seems to be about Hebrews interacting among themselves - what they can do to one another. Given how the god of the Old Testament is not averse to commanding the rape of some outsiders, I'm assuming that it is OK to rape any non-Hebrews.

Please post where it says its OK to rape non-Hebrews.

Only God has 'absolute' freedom, we have 'relative' freedom under the Golden Rule,
and Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
We are Not free to hurt others, murder, rape, steal, etc. We all have the freedom to act responsibly toward God's Golden Rule ( See Leviticus 19:18 ) and within Jesus' New commandment.