That's it! You go, my sister!
Some branches of science it seems, in their misrepresentations of circumstantial evidence as fact, are trying to erase that.
It won't last too much longer, Deeje.
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For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
That's it! You go, my sister!
Some branches of science it seems, in their misrepresentations of circumstantial evidence as fact, are trying to erase that.
It won't last too much longer, Deeje.
The human condition is that which is expressed in the myth of Adam and Eve. It's the "Fall" of man, separating himself from God. What is it in us that "caused" this, we imagine in that myth.
Well now, is that the Infinite question!
Honestly, it was because in reality it was the first time we began to see God. When in our evolutionary past we emerged from the forest primeval, and first opened our eyes to our existential selves, we realized the Infinite before us, then looked at ourselves, realizing we were but small creatures beneath this vast Tent above us that spoke to us of God, of the Infinite Beyond.From this, arose all our myths.
It appears as if you are stuck in your myth mentality and cannot see beyond it to answer the important questions. Oh well....
Adam and Eve had to be real people in order for the Bible to make sense. Noah and the pre-flood world had to be real to show us why faithful angels can materialize and demons can no longer do so. Noah's preaching to that godless generation with his message falling on deaf ears was used by Jesus to show us what was to occur again. (Matthew 24:37-39) In your way of viewing scripture do you have some imaginary line where people become real as opposed to being mythological? Was Jesus real? If his first appearance is not real, then his second appearance is not either.
Do you believe that angels are real?
Why did man "fall"? What caused us to be defective reflections of our perfect Creator? We are supposed to be "made in God's image and likeness" from the beginning....how is that possible in our current state?
No it isn't. It isn't infinite at all. It is answered perfectly and logically in scripture.
Scripture to us is God's communication with the human family. It provides many examples of his interactions with humans and angels. It shows how humans in the beginning abused their free will, lured into disobedience by another rebel who was not human. It shows us what God did about that and how he benefits all humanity for the future because of how he handled it. It is pure genius!
Who said?
Here we go again....you cannot believe in evolution and still believe in a Creator God. The two scenarios do not mesh in any way. You have to ignore scripture to believe that. Many who identify as 'believers' have sold out to science imagining that they can have credibility in both camps. That is impossible, but if you wish to go on believing that the Bible's characters are myths, then that is your prerogative. But God gives us no such license.
Either we have faith in him to take him at his word, or the words of men are valid substitutes. We choose who to believe. God knows why.
I think you are projecting your own lack of insight here.It appears as if you are stuck in your myth mentality and cannot see beyond it to answer the important questions. Oh well....
Adam and Eve are real characters in the Bible. They are part of its overall mythology. The Bible makes sense when you reference them as part of its overall story arc. But they didn't have to physically exist to be included in the texts, and to convey the same meaning. They didn't have to physically exist for the truth of what they symbolize to be true, and the Bible make sense internally.
Let me put this in simpler terms. People teach their children about Santa Claus around Christmastime. In the imagination of the child, Santa captures symbolically all the joy and happiness of that time of year. So when they learn that Santa is an imaginary figure, does the magic of the season disappear for them? If so, then I suppose that's the problem here too. You don't know how to see the actual reality, beyond the symbol. You would be like that child who needs Santa to be a real person, otherwise they don't know how to access the magic that is there the whole time.
That's the problem I see here with this same insistence that Adam and Eve and Noah's big boat has to be real, or what it represents isn't true either. I'm trying to help point this out for you in what way I can, to show you that it is in fact possible. I can do it quite well, even though I know Adam and Eve are fictitious, albeight meaningful characters.
This is a good question, and to be consistent in my answer I'll respond this way. It doesn't matter if what we know of Jesus from the pages of the NT is factual or not. What Jesus represents is what is that Truth. If the real Jesus was just some dude with some cool ideas, and it was his followers in their inspired imaginations who created this superhuman character who walked on water and flew through the sky, it is that figure that they created who represents a greater, higher and deeper truth that we know as "Jesus".
That Jesus is in fact operating as a symbol for us. It is that Jesus, that faith finds expression in. This is what the role of symbols do for us. Jesus is in this case, a symbol, regardless whether he was actually all that we hear in the stories, or he was purely non-existent historically.
It's what the symbols represent, that is true. Even if there was no historical manger and shepherds at the birth of Jesus, it is true in the sense of what it inspires in us, like how Santa represents joy to children at Christmastime. It's just operating on a much deeper, more existential level than a Santa Claus figure. They represent timeless Truth, that we need to put a face on, in our stories and myths.
They are real in one sense, and fictional in another. I see beyond the images we create in our stories to talk about these things, and realize the image is not the actuality.
I could easily write an entire book on this subject. Briefly, the story of the Fall is a symbolic representation of the our existential crisis. We are awake enough to realize we are different than the animals of the field, yet not awake enough to grasp the true nature of who we are in our awakening minds. We are still have asleep, and half awake. Plotinus stated this situation when he said, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts".
The Fall, is a story that expresses our awareness of ourselves and our own mortality, that one day we will be no more. Its images capture aspects of ourselves and tries to create a storyline we can tell ourselves to attempt to understand, to put handles on something which is utterly intangible to most of us. It's a container of truths, symbolically.
In factual reality however, there was no literal Garden, no literal fall from Paradise. In real historical reality, we weren't thrown out of the Garden, we stood up on two feet and one day just left it in search of finding who we really are, and who we are becoming. We evolved from the beasts of the field, and made up a story of what we imaged was how this really all began for us. We wouldn't have had access to knowing about evolution, so our stories were fictional creations. BUT, they still spoke, and still speak truth, even if things never actually happened that way historically.
Well, not exactly. It doesn't answer evolution which they would have not understood or known about back then. Understanding evolution, or any number of scientific realities we understand today, creates a problem for someone when they read the Bible literally, as you are hanging onto tooth and nail. The problem with that is that it will force you into a place where you have to go into denial about facts. That denialism is death to one's spiritual growth.
On the other hand, you can learn about these things and consider how you've thought about the Bible and its stories in a new light, one which does not require intellectual suicide out of fear you may have to rethink your assumptions. Then you can still "believe" the truths in them, but in such a was as you are not being dishonest to yourself, to others, or to the facts as we best understand them today.
Being a Christian does not mean being a person who lived 2000 years in humanity's past, thinking in those same terms. You can be a modern person, and as a modern person have faith and grow spiritually. It's a lot easier that way, actually.
I don't accept that as true, because if it was, there's some real concerns when you examine the texts in painstaking detail. You see the fingerprints of humans all over the place. If God wrote this to us, He's not very good at it.
What I do accept is that people were inspired to write their thoughts about God in the language of the day, which used mythological structures as the means of communication. They are not "infallible", anymore than a great inspired work of art is "perfect and without flaw". That "infallibility" doctrine is also a mythology in an of itself.
It does offer some important insights, but not believing it's a magical book, perfect in everyway, does not mean you have to reject its insights.
You know, it's easier to evolve your beliefs, than throw away your faith when you learn it's not what you imagined it was, when you thought as a child, quoting Paul there. You can still have faith, when you put away childish thoughts and ideas. "Now we see through a glass dimly (symbols and myths), but then Face to Face (direct apprehension of Truth).
Bull crap! I do.
That you've been able to figure out for yourself, hence leading to your current denialism. The purpose of this thread is for you to hear from other Christians who have figured out how to have faith and accept science, isn't that right?
Well, here you go! You want to know, then start asking me how I did it. But, you will have to let go of your grip on your current ideas. You'll have to change how you think. But then it becomes clearer and much easier for you, to continue to grow in faith, while not living in denial. "My yoke is easy."
I do not ignore scripture at all. I simply hold it in a different context, a different light which allows me to hear its insights, without requiring me to shut off my mind and try to tell myself science is wrong in order to preserve my current beliefs. That was unhealthy for me when I tried that back in the day. I have a much healthier relationship with it.
"Sold out to science". Oh, I feel so badly for you that that's how you see this.
That makes me sad you view knowledge as the enemy of faith. I sincerely mean that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Absolutely false as surveys have shown that the vast majority of Jewish and Christian theologians accept both.
What you are doing is creating a nonsensical "litmus test" that confuses faith in God with a literalistic interpretation of a particular narrative. Other interpretations are possible, and I would suggest even more logical since the research supports evolution, whether that be God-guided or not.
This litmus test that you've concocted is simply what can be called "theological arrogance", namely the "my way or the highway" approach when it comes to interpretation. Serious theologians and any of those who take their Bible studies seriously, know that two people can read the same narrative but draw at least somewhat different conclusions.
I like that a lot. I think I'll use that term.
What is interesting to point out about this theological arrogance, is that it actually demonstrates a weak, or non-existent faith. The reason that is true is because faith and beliefs are two different things. Faith is open and receptive, whereas beliefs are general closed and limiting. When faith is strong, we do not fear having our beliefs challenged or completely overturned. Faith pulls someone through this "not knowing" period after one's beliefs have become unseated from their positions in our minds.
A lack of faith however means one's beliefs are of foremost importance to them as the source of security. It has to be right, or there is nothing else you can rest in. It doesn't understand the nature of Faith. So the "True Believer" is in actuality someone who has no knowledge of Faith, and rely instead on their ideas as the Rock of their Souls, so to speak. This is what leads to denialism. It boils down to fear due to a lack of Faith. "If my beliefs are not right, then all is lost! There is no hope!"
I am utterly happy to have someone challenge my views, to offer other perspectives I can learn and grow from. That is because I realize that while beliefs may come and go, they are not the Source of Peace.
I can agree about human ego as even Scripture warns against it at Phillippians 2:2-4.
God does speak for Himself by now having the good news message proclaimed world wide of Matthew 24:14 which is proof of God's love because people everywhere are being informed that if a person does Not repent (meaning one should now love others as Jesus loved others) then that person will perish (aka be destroyed).
God forces No one to love. False clergy are part of the MANY of Matthew 7:21-23 who come in Jesus' name but prove false. That does Not make the teachings of Jesus as wrong, but makes false clergy teachings as wrong.
We all have a culture, and some have cultural bias, but that does Not mean that once one hears about the good news of Daniel 2:44 that they will automatically reject it.
As it was true in Jesus' day, so also true in our day that the vast majority of religious leaders (theologians) do Not teach what the Bible really teaches, but they choose to teach church customs, or church traditions over Scripture.
- Matthew 15:9; Matthew chapter 23. MANY come 'in Jesus' name' but prove false as Matthew 7:21-23 says.
That's not speaking love. That's a threat. That's not love.
God speaks for himself, without the words of man. God speaks in silence. God speaks in creation. God speaks in the heart. He doesn't need self-proclaimed prophets to convey the Truth of God. God is spoken in acts of love. Not all this jazz about preaching Bible verses. That's not love. That's ego.
Then why the threats of damnation or "destruction"? Huh?
Amen to that. Those who do not love, who are full of their egos as they preach from their Bibles that if you don't believe you'll go to hell. Those are the false prophets.
Nor does it mean that they need to, and if they don't they'll be damned or destroyed. God is love.
Is God's inspiration of the Genesis account to be "interpreted" by men of science or those with advanced education? Did God reveal his truth to the learned ones amongst humankind in Jesus' day or did he purposely reveal them to uneducated and humble men of faith?
Matthew 11:25...."...Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children."
Did men of faith back in Bible times also claim to be the learned ones? The schools were attended by those who wanted to use their education to teach others. Isn't that what we see today? But none of those men were chosen by Jesus to be his apostles and very few of the Pharisees became Christians. Why do we suppose that Jesus said those words in Matthew 11:25? What was there about the "wise and intellectual" that would prevent them from accepting the simple truths presented by the Christ? What is there about "young children" that this trait in humans would be desirable to God? Think about that. Then ask yourself which category these "Jewish and Christian scholars" occupy? I take no notice of any of them. The first Christians heard Jesus roundly condemning those men so they were not persuaded or troubled by their opposition as men like Nicodemus were.
Since God is the one who grants us understanding of his word and has "hidden" their meaning from those who are "wise and intellectual" and who want to interpret things their own way, I don't believe "other interpretations" are valid.....they are certainly "possible", but God is not behind any of them. (John 6:44) There cannot be many versions of the truth. There is a deceiver in the world and who can argue that he is doing a great job?
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)Proverbs 3:5-7...
Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways take notice of him, And he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad."
God is the one who directs the hearts of those who look to him for their understanding....the rest are still poking around in the dark, never quite being convinced about anything. Too many are stuck in "I think" mode to be concerned about what "God says". Too many will pick and choose the parts of God's law that suits them whilst ignoring the rest. Why do you think Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) It doesn't matter what we think. Our hearts will find the truth if that is what we are truly searching for.
If we only want what is acceptable to our own leanings, we will never find it.
The "litmus test" (as you call it) was created by God himself when he first offered Israel to enter into a dedicated relationship with him after their release from Egypt. He was the one who made the rules and they agreed to obey them of their own volition. He did not force them to enter into that arrangement, but they did so willingly. By doing that, they agreed to a binding covenant, which time and again, they failed to live up to. God always lived up to his end of the bargain and once he had fulfilled his obligation to Abraham, (to produce his Messiah through the line of Abraham's descendants) he cast the corrupted Jews off as his people. They were serial covenant breakers and he had no further need of the grief they caused him and his efforts to correct them. (Matthew 23:37-39) God chose a new nation with a "new covenant" (foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-32).....'spiritual Israel' came into existence and God blessed their efforts. "The Israel of God" began with faithful Jews who accepted Christ, and later as Gentiles became baptized followers of Christ, they too became part of God's nation. (Galatians 6:16)
Jesus said..."For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be" (Matthew 24:37-39)
In using that situation back then as an example of what was to occur again, just before Jesus returned to judge mankind....when we look at the world of today...what do we see? Do you see godliness even among those who profess belief in the God of Abraham?
The pre-flood world was one obsessed with sex and violence generated by supernatural beings....what do we see today? Does it not seem to you that the extensive level of evil present in this world is also supernaturally generated?
This is explained in Jesus' words in Revelation 12:1-12....
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb+ and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”"
We are living in this time period before Christ comes to judge the world. Satan and his demons are causing as much mayhem and confusion as they can because they are running out of time. Keep in mind that the majority of mankind will not fare well spiritually at this time.
People are free to ignore the warning that is being declared by God's people throughout the earth (Matthew 24:14) but the day for accounting to God is rapidly approaching according to the Bible. History repeats because people fail to learn the lessons from the past, thinking that they know better. Why did the people of Noah's day ignore him? They ignore the message at this time for all the same reasons. (please read Matthew 24:37-39 again)
All we can do is what Christians have always done...preach an unpopular message and be ignored.
Do you not know the difference between a threat and the natural consequences of a certain action?
If a person knows that the death penalty applies for pre-meditated murder but then plots to kill a perceived enemy, who in his own mind deserves it, can he escape the penalty by claiming that it isn't loving to do that? It is loving because that person might kill again because of his twisted thinking. The death penalty prevents him from committing the crime a second time.
Since Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings, then the Bible verses to which he referred would make Jesus Not about love but about ego.
I can't find what Jesus taught that shows ego. What in Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 shows ego in that we are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
I wonder if you could stop wickedness and violence would you, would you force someone to stop being violent against their will, or stop them being wicked against their will.
Asking someone to ' repent ' to me is Not a threat, but serves as a protection against destruction.
Remember: it is only the wicked who will be destroyed as per Psalms 92:7.
Also, I find the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
False prophets put the ' fire ' in biblical hell the grave.
When KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire that put the flames in hell/grave.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed Not burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for destruction and Not forever burning.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What I posted has literally nothing to do with "customs" or "traditions" but with the interpretation of scripture, which is quite different from either. For anyone to claim that they know the exact interpretations of all narratives can be called "theological arrogance", which should be avoided by any serious student of scripture.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, you definitely did the preaching on both your responses to my post even though you totally ignored the point of what I said. All you did was to double-down on the absurdity of your position, namely the ignoring of what the scientific community has well known for centuries now, namely that there is not one shred of evidence for a worldwide flood.All we can do is what Christians have always done...preach an unpopular message and be ignored.
Because of comparisons that defy coincidence, it appears that my Jewish ancestors took a Babylonian epic, modified it to reflect traditional Jewish mores and folkways, and then submitted it to writing. All cultures do this, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing so.
By constantly harping on supposedly having to use a a literalist approach, thus ignoring the scope of traditional Jewish writings that so often use allegory, metaphors, parables, and other forms of symbolism, one stands the chance of missing the basic messages found within the Flood narrative itself.
You think Jesus' Gospel is based on logical reasoning? My, you are a product of modernity, whether you're scientifically ignorant or not. Jesus' teaching was based on, and appeals to Love, not logic and reason!
Yet, you somehow manage to distort them into that with the things you are suggesting.
If you invite someone who is seeking for change in their lives in order to find the good in themselves and the world, that's one thing. Nothing wrong with that at all. But to tell them that the reason they should is because if they don't God will destroy them, that's an entirely other thing. That is ego, masking itself as religious truth in order to hide it's ugly face.
The analogy is simple, it's like paying the mob "protection money" to keep them from trashing your store. "God, please don't destroy me! Here's my worship money. Please, please take it and don't annihilate me!"
Which religionists conveniently extend to anyone who doesn't accept their version of truth. Just call them all wicked and be done with it.
Whatever the arguments theologically, it's still threatening them saying if you don't convert, God will destroy you, either smashing you into oblivion or roasting you in His holy torture chamber of love for eternity. In either case, it really stinks of ego.
Agreed. It is a strange thing to call love:
Yes. That's a threat, not a natural consequence.
Yes. So would you, probably.
"You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, 'When you're done, I'm going to punish you' .. If I were in a situation where I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That's the difference between me and your God." - Tracie Harris
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Did you understand the message? Will you ignore it because of who said it? Think about the flood narrative...are you doing what the people of Noah's day did....for all the same reasons? Are you confidently ignoring God's messengers again because everyone else is doing it, and the ones you trust are saying it never happened? How can you be so sure?
Has the scientific community convinced me that they are in possession of all the facts? Not in the slightest! They have presented nothing but supposition as a substitute for facts. If there were facts, we would have seen them by now. There is evidence for the flood that is largely overlooked by science.
I believe that there is a powerful deceiving entity at work in the world who has guided the ego-driven men of science to see what they want to see. (1 John 5:19) Don't forget that the people Noah tried to warn were unanimous in their rejection of his words. Why do you think they were so confident? Why are you?
One of the four cities founded by Nimrod, (Noah's great grandson) that formed “the beginning of his kingdom.” (Genesis 10:10) was Accad (Akkad)
The name Akkad is also applied to the whole northern region of what later was called Babylonia.
The Akkadian epic of Gilgamesh was written before Genesis, but the event occurred well before the city of Babylon was even built. The Gilgamesh epic does not account for the flood legends that have similar accounts on six continents....all with the same theme. How on earth could such a tale be spread so far in view of the fact that people did not travel far from their homeland in ancient times. Genesis explains what history cannot.
What if it is a case of God "hiding from the wise and intellectual ones" the things that need faith to believe?
Ever consider that? What if there was a water canopy surrounding the earth maintaining a kind of hothouse for living things to flourish in a pre-flood earth? Science says that is impossible but the apostle Peter said that it was held there by "the word of God", so it didn't need science to explain how impossible it was.
"For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water." (2 Peter 3:5-6)
Is anything impossible for the Creator of the universe? (Luke 18:27) ....Apparently puny 'know it all' humans think so. Compared to the Creator, they have the intelligence of slugs.
Why have they dug up palm trees under the icy layers of Siberia? Why have the bodies of vast herds of animals been found as though swept off their feet in a common catastrophic event? How do animals get snap frozen with food still in their mouths?
When there were parables, Jesus clearly indicated that they were. In Matthew 24:37-39 he was linking the days of Noah to our time...do you not see the clear evidence of what he was saying?
Paul wrote about the faithful men of old...."By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that results from faith." Hebrews 11:7)
If Noah was not a real person, then was Abraham, whom Paul also mentions in the next verses? (Hebrews 11:8-10)
Where do we draw the line in the long list of Bible characters and say that one was real but others were not?
Abraham was the one to whom the promise was made for all the nations to be blessed through his lineage. Abraham lived before Moses who wrote Genesis....so, how you know who is a fictitious teaching tool and who was a real person.....? Please tell us.
You mean, there is scientific evidence that science overlooks it? So you're saying science is overlooking the science that says science is overlooking the science that science is overlooking? I'm really confused here. Help us out some. Whose evidence? From where? You mean evidence that isn't scientific evidence? What sort of evidence is that, exactly?
Are you meaning to say, science is ignoring non-scientific evidence? That would make sense, wouldn't it? Science doesn't validate claims of evidence that don't meet scientific standards. It shouldn't. Thank God it doesn't!
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I find there is a difference between theological arrogance and what the Bible really teaches.
Since the Bible is Not in written in alphabetical ABC order then researching needs to be done by subject arrangement or topic arrangement by taking one topic or subject at a time and view if there is internal harmony among the Bible writers, thus in that way see a more complete or comprehensive understanding of what the writers are writing.
As in Jesus' day (Matthew 15:9) religious leaders were teaching customs or traditions which were ' outside ' of Scripture, but teaching them as being Scripture. That to me has nothing to do with interpretation of Scripture but interpretation of church customs, or church traditions which are Not found based on Scripture.
I find serious students are like the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 who searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing or what they were learning was really found in Scripture.