For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

[roger1440]

Your point?

I don't see anything new in your "New Covenant". Not from the verses you had just quoted anyway.

 

[dantech]

I don't see anything new in your "New Covenant". Not from the verses you had just quoted anyway.

I don't get it. Aren't you Christian?

 

[roger1440]

Yeah, but I'm one those Christians that would have been burned at the stake 500 years ago.

 

[dantech]

Yeah, but I'm one those Christians that would have been burned at the stake 500 years ago.

So what exactly is your belief system, if you don't mind my asking.

 

[roger1440]

So what exactly is your belief system, if you don't mind my asking.

Here is something I wrote about two weeks ago on another thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3505052-post23.html

Originally Posted by Shiranui117
Any proof that the Jewish Christians interpreted the Gospels as purely symbolic? This seems absurd, keeping in mind that the Apostles were preaching Jesus' Resurrection as an actual event.
In Mathews Gospel Jesus is represented as the nation of Israel collectively. The difference being Jesus is the Israel that never went astray. Jesus is God’s son, just as the nation of Israel is God’s son. “where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."” (Mat 2:15) This fulfillment explains the first fulfillment, the virgin birth. All of the Gospel of Mathew is allegory. The temptation of Jesus in chapter four of Mathew is a retelling of the Jews journey through the desert for forty years. Please note, before Jesus is tempted he is first baptized. Before the Jews go on their forty year journey they pass through the Red Sea. In chapter fourteen Jesus feeds four thousand people. In chapter fifteen Jesus feeds five thousand people. In chapter sixteen the author of Mathew explains the feeding, "Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." . (Mat 16:6). The Jesus of Mathews’ Gospel is telling his audience the teaching of the Pharisees has no weight. It’s full of air. Jesus’s teaching has substance, therefore it is filling. This teaching is the word of God, the true bread that comes from Heaven. The same bread that had sustained the Jews for forty years in the desert. This is the same bread that is mentioned in the Lord’s Prayer in chapter six. Jesus is born in Bethlehem because Bethlehem literally means “house of bread”.

The following is something I had posted on another thread:
Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3489093-post973.html
“The Jesus of Mathew’s Gospel represents the true Israelite or the Israel without blemish. This Jesus is a metaphor. This Gospel was never intended to be taken literal. This Jesus is not “…about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children.” (Exo. 12:37) Obviously this Jesus is not hundreds of thousands people squeezed into one. This metaphor is an example set as a model, a paradigm. This metaphor is constructed using existing metaphors the Jews in the first century were familiar with from the Jewish scriptures. Its original aim wasn’t to have people worship some executed Jew. Its sole purpose was to point to the meaning of the Torah. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Mat. 5:17) This is not a prophesy. What Mathew is saying, “You wanna know what the Torah is about, just look at this Jesus dude.” All of the Gospel of Mathew is allegory. Jesus was born of the flesh and united with God. This is where the virgin birth comes in. The key word is “united”. The concept is mentioned in the book of Exodus. First the Jews are held in bondage with Egypt. Once freed they are told to, “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” (Deu. 6:5) and “Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.” (Deu. 6:8). The root of the word bondage is bond. The words bond, bind and unite are all synonymous. The Jews are to be one with God just as the allegorical Jesus is. The author of the Gospel of Philip would probably agree with me. “…the Lord (Jesus Christ) would not have said, “My Father Who is in Heaven,” if He had not had another father. He would have said simply: “My father”.” Philip also writes, “The Truth is not given to this world in clear form, but in symbols and images. It is not possible to give It in other forms.” (Gospel of Philip). It doesn’t surprise me in the least why the early church wanted this Gospel destroyed. As I said before, the Gospel of Mathew wasn’t intended for Gentiles. It is a Jewish allegorical writing.”

 

[roger1440]

According to the Canonical Gospels Jesus is the son of God, but according to the Torah Israel is the son of God. How can both be the son of God? It’s a real no brainer. Jesus is Israel, LOL

 

[roger1440]

So what exactly is your belief system, if you don't mind my asking.

Do you think the Gospel of Mathew contradicts the Torah? If so how and what verse?

 

[dantech]

Off the top of my head...

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18)


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

The law is written to be everlasting, forever and ever. This includes Kosher rules, Circumcision rules, etc...

Both these sentences make it seem like the law is to be accomplished, and then no longer binding. Or maybe I misunderstand. Let me know.

 

[Shermana]

Off the top of my head...

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18)


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

The law is written to be everlasting, forever and ever. This includes Kosher rules, Circumcision rules, etc...

Both these sentences make it seem like the law is to be accomplished, and then no longer binding. Or maybe I misunderstand. Let me know.

Indeed Dantech, it is not the Law that is to be accomplished, it is all events in the history of existence until Heaven and Earth pass away! That is what Jesus means by "Until all is accomplished".

Now some rascals will try to say that "Until all things have taken place" only refers to his death on the cross, where he says "It is finished", and you can go ahead and ignore the "Until heaven and earth pass away/collapse" part. Or that when Jesus said not to teach to break the least of the commandments, it is no longer in effect after his death, or that when the Jerusalem Church called out Paul, it was simply because they were too attached to the Law. Now if they'd at least acknowledge Jewish Christians were supposed to be under the Law, that'd be fine, we can discuss the interpolation issue of the Council of Jerusalem and how it totally clashes with Galatians 2 another time.

And of course, they're all too happy to throw God Himself under the bus, who says the Law is for "ALL" generations, for "Perpetuity".

May all those who deny that Jesus taught everlasting obedience to the Law without exception, may their influence be brought to absolute naught and may they be regarded as agenda-driven fibbers.

 

[InChrist]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.




Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

How many times is this phrase (or something very similar) ... And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them...used in the book of Leviticus and elsewhere in the books of Moses?
As these very few examples demonstrate:

And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Exodus 19:3-6

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. Exodus 31:12-13

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’” Exodus 31:16-17

“Therefore you shall keep My commandments, and perform them: I am the Lord. You shall not profane My holy name, but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel. I am the Lord who sanctifies you, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the Lord.” Lev.22:31-33

These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. Lev.26:46
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai. Lev. 27:34

Jesus was Jewish, speaking to the Jews concerning the laws which were given to Israel. There is no reason that He would disagree with the OT or disregard the Mosaic Covenant God made with Israel. The covenant and laws were still in place and continue to be so for any descendent of Israel and to convict the non-Jews of the world because God created the nation of Israel to be a light to the nations and display His standard of perfection. Yet, the Hebrew scriptures reveal that no one in history has ever lived up to the perfection of the Law, even a Pharisee like Saul (Paul). I believe the testimony of the scriptures that Jesus alone, as God's Son/Messiah, met the requirements to perfection. Therefore, those who place their faith and trust in Him receive His perfect righteousness and are set free from the burden of the law to save themselves, which no human can keep perfectly anyway. This is God's grace through Jesus Christ offered to the whole world. I see in the scriptures that God's purpose for Israel was to show His standard of perfection to the nations and bring forth the Savior/Messiah and His purpose for the church is to show His grace and salvation through Christ the promised One.

 

[Shermana]

So you don't believe that Christians are now part of the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" who Jesus ONLY came for then? Funny, most Christians I speak to think that the Church is now the New Israel or at least now parts of Israel.

Therefore, those who place their faith and trust in Him receive His perfect righteousness and are set free from the burden of the law to save themselves, which no human can keep perfectly anyway

SO anyone who places their trust in Jesus can freely murder, rape, steal, commit adultery, pillage, cheat, covet, practice witchcraft, etc. Wow, what a blasphemy of "God's grace".

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Wasn't Noah called perfect before God? Wasn't Job?

 

[roger1440]

Off the top of my head...

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18)


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

The law is written to be everlasting, forever and ever. This includes Kosher rules, Circumcision rules, etc...

Both these sentences make it seem like the law is to be accomplished, and then no longer binding. Or maybe I misunderstand. Let me know.

You are right, but read the verse a little closer. The law will not disappear until Heaven and Earth disappears. :clap

 

[InChrist]

So you don't believe that Christians are now part of the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" who Jesus ONLY came for then? Funny, most Christians I speak to think that the Church is now the New Israel or at least now parts of Israel.

I do not believe that Gentile Christians are now a part of the lost sheep of Israel, the new Israel, or a replacement of Israel. I think the biblical view is that only literal descendents of Abraham. Issac, and Jacob are a part of the house of Israel. Jesus came first to and for Israel in fulfillment of prophecy as the promised Messiah, as one born under the law to redeem those who were born under the law (Gal.4:4-5). Yet, the salvation He offered was not limited only to Israel ...

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19)

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

SO anyone who places their trust in Jesus can freely murder, rape, steal, commit adultery, pillage, cheat, covet, practice witchcraft, etc. Wow, what a blasphemy of "God's grace".

[/quote]

Obviously not, as Jesus reiterated all the ten commandments, except keeping the sabbath and He wrapped up the law in these two commandments...

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”(Matt. 22:37-40)

“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31)

So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”(Luke 10:27)

No one who has placed their trust in Christ, repented of their former sinful life, died to self and risen to new life in Christ would think that it is okay to participate in the behaviors you listed above. Instead of practicing sinful behaviors believers are to live according to the Spirit of the law of Christ loving God with all one's heart, soul, strength, and mind and neighbor as oneself as did Jesus and as He does when living through the lives of those submitted His power.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)

 

[InChrist]

Wasn't Noah called perfect before God? Wasn't Job?

Yes, Noah and Job were called perfect or blameless, but does that mean sinless? I don't think so because every human being breaks God's commands and sin at times. David was called a man after God's own heart, yet he sinned and Noah did also. I think perfect or blameless in reference to these individuals means that they were examples of a life of faith and an ongoing attitude and heart of believing and desiring to obey God.

 

[Pegg]

SO anyone who places their trust in Jesus can freely murder, rape, steal, commit adultery, pillage, cheat, covet, practice witchcraft, etc. Wow, what a blasphemy of "God's grace".

Shermana, that is just silly.

 

[CMike]

Yes, Noah and Job were called perfect or blameless, but does that mean sinless? I don't think so because every human being breaks God's commands and sin at times. David was called a man after God's own heart, yet he sinned and Noah did also. I think perfect or blameless in reference to these individuals means that they were examples of a life of faith and an ongoing attitude and heart of believing and desiring to obey God.

Not quite. No person is perfect.

He was called perfect for his generation, but his generation was extremely corrupt.

There is really a question of how righteous Noah was when compared to let's say Abraham.

Out of 120 years in building the ark he wasn't able to get one person to repent. That's not too good.

 

[CMike]

Also from Dvarim 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

The law is perpetual it can not be added to nor subtracted from.

So by Jesus saying he "fulfilled the law" it directly contradicts G-D.

Then as Dan pointed out Jesus contradicts himself by saying that not one iota shouldn't be done.

 

[CMike]

How many times is this phrase (or something very similar) ... And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them...used in the book of Leviticus and elsewhere in the books of Moses?
As these very few examples demonstrate:

And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Exodus 19:3-6

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. Exodus 31:12-13

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’” Exodus 31:16-17

“Therefore you shall keep My commandments, and perform them: I am the Lord. You shall not profane My holy name, but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel. I am the Lord who sanctifies you, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the Lord.” Lev.22:31-33

These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. Lev.26:46
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai. Lev. 27:34

Jesus was Jewish, speaking to the Jews concerning the laws which were given to Israel. There is no reason that He would disagree with the OT or disregard the Mosaic Covenant God made with Israel. The covenant and laws were still in place and continue to be so for any descendent of Israel and to convict the non-Jews of the world because God created the nation of Israel to be a light to the nations and display His standard of perfection. Yet, the Hebrew scriptures reveal that no one in history has ever lived up to the perfection of the Law, even a Pharisee like Saul (Paul). I believe the testimony of the scriptures that Jesus alone, as God's Son/Messiah, met the requirements to perfection. Therefore, those who place their faith and trust in Him receive His perfect righteousness and are set free from the burden of the law to save themselves, which no human can keep perfectly anyway. This is God's grace through Jesus Christ offered to the whole world. I see in the scriptures that God's purpose for Israel was to show His standard of perfection to the nations and bring forth the Savior/Messiah and His purpose for the church is to show His grace and salvation through Christ the promised One.

If he told these things to the "children of Israel" what about the adults??

(that was a joke)

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Yes, Noah and Job were called perfect or blameless, but does that mean sinless? I don't think so because every human being breaks God's commands and sin at times. David was called a man after God's own heart, yet he sinned and Noah did also. I think perfect or blameless in reference to these individuals means that they were examples of a life of faith and an ongoing attitude and heart of believing and desiring to obey God.

Yes it pretty much does.

If you have sinned, then you are not blameless (God can blame you), if you have sinned than you are not perfect.

Regardless however if they sinned they were still called blameless before God...lol perhaps Gods standards aren't as high as we think they are.