for those people who love to hate on the wealthy...

[LuisDantas]

I'm not convinced that it is ethically defensible to picture social levels in terms of success and failure alone.

It would be fair if individuals, families and communities had no mutual duties. But it is so very clear that they do, and even that they need to catch up a lot in their acceptance of same, that I can't very well understand how come it is even a serious controversy to some.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

How do we make it better? First and foremost we don't give up. The recession has to pass eventually. What can a person do to improve their lot in life? Make a plan for one thing. I don't believe I would borrow a bunch of money to attend college and pursue a Liberal Arts degree for one thing. Technical schools find their graduates gainful employment. People should polish their marketing and interview skills and most of all network with successful people. You might want to work for nothing and do a temporary position to gain experience and show off your skills to get your foot in the door of a great company and live at home with your parents for a while. If your determination gets noticed, it could result in being the next person they hire making great money. The sacrifice might just pay off in spades.

It's called delayed satisfaction and sure beats working for low pay all your life. You should be flexible and be willing to relocate. Each job should be a stepping stone to your next job that you really want.

First off no it does not have to get better. Rudimentary history should teach you that. Secondly you have an odd cognitive dissonance going on. Some people like to fish, drink and just hang out and have no desire for kids etc. They do not want to work for a good company or have to work everyday yet they are born right here in america. Are they evil?

You really don't get the haves and the have nots... I implore you to travel your own country and get to know the majority. More people live in California then in Canada. Your whole ideology seems silly. It beats working for low pay... Some people strive to only have to work for low pay and work as little as possible.

 

[dust1n]

Do people really think that being poor is rewarding in any way, even with all the benefits one might be able to apply for, or even con from the government?

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

Do people really think that being poor is rewarding in any way, even with all the benefits one might be able to apply for, or even con from the government?

Compared to what?

 

[dust1n]

Compared to what?

......to... not being poor.

 

[darkendless]

Some people like to fish, drink and just hang out and have no desire for kids etc. They do not want to work for a good company or have to work everyday yet they are born right here in america. Are they evil?

No but their lacking ambition should not absolve them of taxation.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

......to... not being poor.

That doesn't answer the question. Growing up poor in america is still well fed and quite entertained as opposed to growing up poor in say africa etc.

I know you are trying to create a picture but I grew up on welfare and wic and government cheese and now not being poor I still think being poor in america was much better had I been been born poor in another country or even another time.

Sure a rich person might be given everything they need to be happy but there is no guarantee they are happier than a poor person. Rich people commit suicide right?

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

No but their lacking ambition should not absolve them of taxation.

An interesting point of view. Some one striving to live off the land without burdening anyone else or using their roads or any other public utility should still be taxxed. Perhaps... Afterall the military is defending them right...

And it is their lack of ambition... curious you paint them that way. In america today you are quite wrong though... if you dont make enough then you dont get taxed right?

 

[darkendless]

An interesting point of view. Some one striving to live off the land without burdening anyone else or using their roads or any other public utility should still be taxxed. Perhaps... Afterall the military is defending them right...

And it is their lack of ambition... curious you paint them that way. In america today you are quite wrong though... if you dont make enough then you dont get taxed right?

I'm not American I wouldn't know.

 

[dust1n]

That doesn't answer the question. Growing up poor in america is still well fed and quite entertained as opposed to growing up poor in say africa etc.

I know you are trying to create a picture but I grew up on welfare and wic and government cheese and now not being poor I still think being poor in america was much better had I been been born poor in another country or even another time.

Sure a rich person might be given everything they need to be happy but there is no guarantee they are happier than a poor person. Rich people commit suicide right?

I'm going to go with poor being under <15,000 for single people, <27,000 for couples, and <40,000 for families, adjust slightly depending one what place in America. Rich people can commit suicide, but that really doesn't have anything to do with my question, does it?

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

I'm going to go with poor being under <15,000 for single people, <27,000 for couples, and <40,000 for families, adjust slightly depending one what place in America. Rich people can commit suicide, but that really doesn't have anything to do with my question, does it?

Ok lets just take your simplest argument: Someone who is single and makes less than 15,000 dollars a year can not have a rewarding life in america?

 

[McBell]

Ok lets just take your simplest argument: Someone who is single and makes less than 15,000 dollars a year can not have a rewarding life in america?

What does being poor have to do with a rewarding life?

 

[Alceste]

Going through my tax for the last 2 years (in between receiving a pay rise from work) my gross annual income has slightly increased whilst my pay rise was worth $5k.

I think you're right and the main issue is that i'm getting taxed heavily on the add-ons to my salary such as allowances for travel and equipment as well as penalty rates.

Seems you're in the tax bracket where it's time to get yourself a better accountant. You'd be amazed what people with money can deduct over here. Quite a lot depends on what you do with it. If you invested that $5000 raise here, you'd actually pay a lower tax rate on that than your earned income.

 

[Alceste]

I have conflicting thoughts on this topic. Whilst on one hand I think everyone should have the same tax rate and feel it unfair to tax people more simply because they're in a position to make more, i recognise that public money has to come from those that can afford to lose it. You can only tax the breadliners so much. The cost of living isn't a straight line but it's not far off.

I honestly don't know what to think. As I said i'm always sore over paying sop much tax given how hard I worked to get to where I am.

Try to remember how much you benefited from the contributions of wealthier Australians when you were paying lower taxes. How much harder would it have been for you without publicly funded health care, for example? Or any public funding for universities or government backed student loan. Or public infrastructure to get you to work. Would you like to have had to pay the same percentage as you do now in taxes when you got your first job? Would that have helped or hindered your efforts to improve your economic situation?

The thing is, with progressive taxation, everyone DOES pay the same already. If you and I both make $20,000, we pay the same amount of tax. If you make $50,000, you pay the same on the first $20,000 you make that I pay on mine, but you pay a little more on the $30-50,000 portion.

I've yet to hear from anybody anywhere in a high tax bracket who would be willing to take a pay cut to get into the lower tax brackets they're always complaining about. That alone should tell you everything you need to know on the subject.

 

[darkendless]

Seems you're in the tax bracket where it's time to get yourself a better accountant. You'd be amazed what people with money can deduct over here. Quite a lot depends on what you do with it. If you invested that $5000 raise here, you'd actually pay a lower tax rate on that than your earned income.

You're very correct here. I've been told I need to do it. As someone who is still new to earning too much money for my own good I need to protect it better for the sake of a small fee.

 

[darkendless]

Try to remember how much you benefited from the contributions of wealthier Australians when you were paying lower taxes. How much harder would it have been for you without publicly funded health care, for example? Or any public funding for universities or government backed student loan. Or public infrastructure to get you to work. Would you like to have had to pay the same percentage as you do now in taxes when you got your first job? Would that have helped or hindered your efforts to improve your economic situation?

The thing is, with progressive taxation, everyone DOES pay the same already. If you and I both make $20,000, we pay the same amount of tax. If you make $50,000, you pay the same on the first $20,000 you make that I pay on mine, but you pay a little more on the $30-50,000 portion.

I've yet to hear from anybody anywhere in a high tax bracket who would be willing to take a pay cut to get into the lower tax brackets they're always complaining about. That alone should tell you everything you need to know on the subject.

Very good points. I now play a part in building that public infrastructure funded by excessively taxing the rich One of the major things is public transport which, due to the geography of Oz is painful.

 

[Alceste]

No but their lacking ambition should not absolve them of taxation.

Nobody is exempt from taxation. I'll wager I pay a greater percentage of my income in tax than you to, since I have to spend all my oncome to live. There is a 12% sales tax on practically everything, and gas tax (a large part of my budget) is ridiculous - something like 40%.

This, incidentally, is why some of the more unscrupulous wealthy folks in this world favour consumption tax over wealth or income tax - consumption taxes shift the burden from the wealthy onto the poor, as does flat tax.

 

[darkendless]

Nobody is exempt from taxation. I'll wager I pay a greater percentage of my income in tax than you to, since I have to spend all my oncome to live. There is a 12% sales tax on practically everything, and gas tax (a large part of my budget) is ridiculous - something like 40%.

This, incidentally, is why some of the more unscrupulous wealthy folks in this world favour consumption tax over wealth or income tax - consumption taxes shift the burden from the wealthy onto the poor, as does flat tax.

Gas tax as in to run a car? We get it to. We pay about 3 times what US citizens do for petrol. They pay a little bit more for a gallon than we do for 1 litre and a lot of it is government tax. Also car registration had quadrupled in a decade.

I guess our countries have the same issues.

 

[Alceste]

Gas tax as in to run a car? We get it to. We pay about 3 times what US citizens do for petrol. They pay a little bit more for a gallon than we do for 1 litre and a lot of it is government tax. Also car registration had quadrupled in a decade.

I guess our countries have the same issues.

They do, but I'll wager spending 40 cents a litre on tax for gas is a bigger burden on me than it is on you, and represents a MUCH larger percentage of my total income.

 

[darkendless]

They do, but I'll wager spending 40 cents a litre on tax for gas is a bigger burden on me than it is on you, and represents a MUCH larger percentage of my total income.

True. I'm fortunate to not have to use my own car for work.