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For those who left the Christian Faith, let's discuss what you have discovered.
- Thread starter Christian Pilgrim
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Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
Part of the Religious Forum site is a discussion and debate between spiritual worldviews.
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
No, I am saying that the Bible teaches the God chose certain sinners before the foundation of the word to believe in Christ.
Comicaze247
See the previous line
Yeah, I was actually wondering where he's been.
Welcome back, Dopp!
/end my off-topic
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yes, but not everyone appreciates aggression on the topic. You don't seem to be interested in learning so much as debunking.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Yep, but I wouldn't answer someone who I feel is badgering me or is asking questions just to tell me I'm wrong. But that's just me.
guilo
Undercover Nudist
Pilgrim, I'm glad you're saying that when you find truth you adjust your views to it. It just seems that you are deliberately deciding for yourself what is true and what is not, and not by the merit of reason. On evolution, I didn't mention it, but you were very quick to pick up on it, is that all you see in people who reason?
For one thing, you are right, I am not opposed to the theory of evolution. I would like you to name me a few scientists that do not agree with the evolution theory. People are often mistaken that scientists denounce evolution, when they often don't read their comments in context of what was said before.
If you are open to truth, tell me how you define it. To me, truth needs proof, just as in the justice system, which means that people have agreed with me for centuries. Proof is validated by reason. If you can give me proof (scripture is not proof, unless proven) of Adam and Eve, talking snakes and trees that bear fruit which harnesses an ability to define right from wrong, that is more convincing than the proof of evolution, fossil records, genome projects, homologue structures, the list goes on, then I will certainly believe your claim, as that would have to be some proof, alright.
Scripture, as a form of reasonable argument, is not very convincing, as it contradicts itself many times.
For instance, when do you think was man created, before animals, or after them? Seems Scripture is double-sided on that one, as genesis 1 says animals came first and genesis 2 says man came first. Which to believe? So maybe this is a trivial thing, but if the Bible is wrong on small matters, how can we trust it with the really big ones?
Would love to hear from you.
For one thing, you are right, I am not opposed to the theory of evolution. I would like you to name me a few scientists that do not agree with the evolution theory. People are often mistaken that scientists denounce evolution, when they often don't read their comments in context of what was said before.
If you are open to truth, tell me how you define it. To me, truth needs proof, just as in the justice system, which means that people have agreed with me for centuries. Proof is validated by reason. If you can give me proof (scripture is not proof, unless proven) of Adam and Eve, talking snakes and trees that bear fruit which harnesses an ability to define right from wrong, that is more convincing than the proof of evolution, fossil records, genome projects, homologue structures, the list goes on, then I will certainly believe your claim, as that would have to be some proof, alright.
Scripture, as a form of reasonable argument, is not very convincing, as it contradicts itself many times.
For instance, when do you think was man created, before animals, or after them? Seems Scripture is double-sided on that one, as genesis 1 says animals came first and genesis 2 says man came first. Which to believe? So maybe this is a trivial thing, but if the Bible is wrong on small matters, how can we trust it with the really big ones?
Would love to hear from you.
Comicaze247
See the previous line
So we don't have free will?
Hence what I was saying. You have to commit yourself to "God" before you can choose whether or not to submit to "God?" That's like saying "You just reject God because you reject God."
But people who haven't been "born again" can't see Christ, right? Doesn't somebody have to submit to "God" before they can be "born again?" By then, the choice has already been made. What it sounds like you're saying is "you have to submit to God before you can submit to God."
"Unless God changes who you are, you won't have free will" is what I'm getting from that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And didn't "God" make us all who we are, according to Christianity? Does that mean he messed up the first time?
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
These are very good points. Maybe one man's logic is another man's foolishness? We should start by defining what is truth, and how truth is determined. As you may know, there are Christians who are Christian evolutionist. A six day literal account of creation is not dogmatically defined within the essentials of the Christian Faith. I believe truth is defined from outside of ourselves. Our views are just perception to that truth. Christian apologetics, or to logically convince someone that Christianity is true is not what the Bible teaches as to be able to see the truths of Christianity. Actually, the Bible teaches that God opposes man's reason and man's wisdom, and man's logic from within. The Bible never debates the existence of the biblical God.
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Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
These ideas of Christianity is based on contemporay views of Christianity, but not biblical Christianity. The Bible teaches that all are born into this world spirituality dead. We are all dead to God; therefore, God has to quicken us to spiritual life before we can respond. It is a sole act of God that someone becomes spirituality alive. The response of man is not the cause of spiritual birth. I'm trying to tell you that fallen makind does not have a free will to come to God. Since God is perfect, He is unable to mess up or to do wrong.
Comicaze247
See the previous line
That, I remember from what I was taught. I eventually felt like that idea didn't hold any water.
Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm assuming you're saying that one has to be "born again" in order to be "spiritually alive," correct? From my understanding, "born again" itself is a Christian concept. So you'd have to accept and go through with that Christian concept in order to be able to choose whether or not to choose "God." Really doesn't make any sense to me.
So according to your beliefs, "God" forces us to see him, correct? Only then we have free will? Very contrary to what I was taught.
So "God" purposely makes us flawed, and therefore subject to damn ourselves to Hell? And yet he's all-loving? And yet he has a "Plan"?
Interesting that you found his answers hostile. Dopp is never hostile...
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Love
Dallas
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Blue again..
Love
Dallas
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Im sorry ..I thought ya'll mentioned Rotties..LOL!! They are as sweet as you are..Blue died last week..Mandy..(the 3 legged one in my picture) died about 4 years ago..And Roxanne died about 12 years ago...(dont have a digital of Roxanne..but she was sweet as pie as well..loyal and loving..)...
Love
Dallas
Love
Dallas
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Correct. Pearls and swine and all that . . .
blackout
Violet.
I'm sorry to hear about your dog as well honey...
but honestly it's the face in the middle I find the sweetest.
You really are a beautiful woman Lana.