For those who think that prophet Mohammad was a pedophile

[atpollard]

Do you think that the prophet was a pedophile because during his life he married one woman
which is thought to be underage? is that what you think a pedophile is?

A 54 year old man had sex with a 9 year old girl!
Nothing about that seems WRONG to you?

 

[icehorse]

Who said you all have to agree? Are you basing this on debates with a few Muslims on RF as if they represent 1.6bilion Muslims. I don't think you have to agree with my ideas,claims and beliefs and I don't have to agree with any of your claims.

Well the OIC to start with. The leaders of the Muslim world care very deeply that we accept this idea.

Then we have folks who think novelists should be killed. And then of course those nasty cartoonists!..

 

[Notanumber]

I bought an excellent Quran app the other day. It has the Arabic and English translation as well as the English transliteration which to me is important and gives the meaning of each word. The best I've found so far.

I'm always looking for more digital books such as commentaries, I have many English Qurans but translations are quite poor except for one or two.

This is a good resource.

https://www.amazon.com/Sharia-Law-N...rd_wg=uWFzI&psc=1&refRID=XYNWV6BN360T4H1AGCNW

 

[RitalinOD]

I think you need to realise that 'child molester' and 'paedophile' aren't the same. Most child molesters are opportunists who are not exclusively attracted to children, they do it for the power. Paedophiles are only attracted to, and can only get off with, those younger than 11. Not all paedophiles molest children. Not all child molesters are paedophiles. The question of the thread is, basically, was Mohammad a paedophile? No, he wasn't. Did he molest a child? Yes.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that pedophiles are only attracted to children. This does not fit any definition of the word, and is objectively false. Also, there is no associated age with pedophilia, as it applies to prepubescent children. Children go through puberty at different ages, so again, objectively incorrect.

Lets try to stick with facts here.

 

[FearGod]

Nope. But most Muslims I talk to believe it (this is anecdotal) and most writings by mainstream Islamic scholars I come across preach it as true.

Do you believe it?

Of course I don't believe it, if they wanted to follow the prophet's model then let them
marry a woman 15 years older than them and to stay in love with them till they die.

 

[Rival]

I don't know where you're getting this idea that pedophiles are only attracted to children. This does not fit any definition of the word, and is objectively false. Also, there is no associated age with pedophilia, as it applies to prepubescent children. Children go through puberty at different ages, so again, objectively incorrect.

Lets try to stick with facts here.

Okay, a paedophile is someone who is attracted to prepubescent children. These specimens generally occur 11 years and under. Most girls start puberty at about 10 or 11. Boys a little later. The general consensus is that paedophilia ends at age 11, where hebephilia begins, and normal attraction begins at 16.

Yes, a person can be attracted both to children and adults, but I was trying to get across that in order to be a paedophile the primary sexual interest has to be children. That not everyone who engages sexually with a child is a paedophile and not all paedohpiles have relations with children.

In other words, I support the idea that paedophilia is a sexual orientation. So obviously the primary intrest is prepubescent kids.

 

[FearGod]

A 54 year old man had sex with a 9 year old girl!
Nothing about that seems WRONG to you?

Did you see them doing it?

 

[icehorse]

Did you see them doing it?

I have to largely repeat what was said earlier in this thread. In 2016/2017 it doesn't matter whether it really happened. What REALLY MATTERS is that millions and millions of Muslims *think* it happened, and they therefore *think* it's a good idea.

 

[Akivah]

I agree that is a problem. The times have clearly changed. But similar criticisms can be made of Jews and Christians.

The difference is that Jews and Christians are not actively carrying out the parts of their religions which modern ethics reject, but Muslims are.

Check out this article written by Lebanese columnist Hazem Saghiya

An observer might get the impression that, in addition to the many civil wars raging in the Arab countries, these countries are also engaged in a perpetual war against women.

A Lebanese MP called Elie Marouni, said 'some women give a rapist a reason to rape them'.

Egyptian MP Ilhami Agina, possessing an imagination and [capacity] for fantasy absent in his Lebanese colleague, opposed a bill criminalizing female genital mutilation. [According to him], the rise in impotence among men obligates us to suppress sexual desire in women!

Hazem Saghiya writes "What to do with a woman who is forever required to be [treated] either like a slave, a commodity or a doll? The [Arab] regimes, whether conservative or revolutionary, only work to entrench this status of women."

Lebanese Columnist: The Arab Countries Seem To Be Engaged In A Perpetual War Against Women

 

[RitalinOD]

in order to be a paedophile the primary sexual interest has to be children.

Says who? Who is this authority that makes this distinction?

 

[Akivah]

Did you see the prophet doing it?

Is this your standard of proof? That in order to make the claim that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was a child, the claimer must have personally witnessed it?

 

[Kirran]

By the same logic - did you see Muhammad talking to Jibrail? Did you see him preaching Islam? Did you see him doing anything tradition upholds he did? If not, well, I guess he didn't do them.

 

[Rival]

Says who? Who is this authority that makes this distinction?

Or else you're just a normal person?

Again, like I said, I'm of the opinion that paedophilia is an orientation, like hetero and homosexuality. These people are attracted to prepubescent kids.

 

[RitalinOD]

Or else you're just a normal person?

Again, like I said, I'm of the opinion that paedophilia is an orientation, like hetero and homosexuality. These people are attracted to prepubescent kids.

You're making claims you can't substantiate. You say a pedophile has to be primarily attracted to children. I asked you to prove this assertion. You have not done so.

As if that distinction makes a difference in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Akivah]

Did you make a study and research about their number?

I poked around the web looking for polls answered by Muslims about this question, but couldn't find any. Do you know of any polls taken by Muslims about their own beliefs?

I did find this though on WikiIslam
Aisha's Age of Consummation - WikiIslam

The article presents each argument about Aisha's age and concludes as follows:

Apologists have presented a series of arguments as to why the generally accepted understanding of Aisha’s age (i.e. nine-years-old) when she married and had sex with Muhammad, based on commonly known narratives, is erroneous and contradictory. However, on closer inspection, we find they have produced arguments that can be broadly categorized into these categories:
A. Unjustified slanders against Hisham ibn Urwah and the Iraqi narrators.
B. The use of non-sahih information to refute otherwise sahih hadiths.
C. The use of secondary, indirect sources in preference of direct testimonies.
D. The use of ‘imprecise’ dating in preference to specific dates and statements of age.
E. The use of misquoted references and erroneous information.
F. The use of incorrect logic.
G. Personal opinion.

 

[Kirran]

Or else you're just a normal person?

Again, like I said, I'm of the opinion that paedophilia is an orientation, like hetero and homosexuality. These people are attracted to prepubescent kids.

I'm also somewhat in agreement that it's better referred to as a sexuality than as a psychiatric disorder. There are a number of harmful sexualities and a number of healthy sexualities. People need to be able to seek help if they have pedophilia. Such approaches are being rolled out in Germany etc.

You're making claims you can't substantiate. You say a pedophile has to be primarily attracted to children. I asked you to prove this assertion. You have not done so.

It's not exactly an assertion. It's just defining the word pedophilia.

 

[Thanda]

This doesn't really defeat the argument that Muhammad molested a child. At best all it shows is that, in opposition to the claims of him being a moral exemplar that Muslims make, he is really no better or worse than anyone else of his time. And that's where the problem lies: Muslims try to have their cake & eat it. 'Muhammad was perfect, without flaw etc but we'll use the immoral kuffar of his time as a benchmark for his behaviour so that when he does do reprehensible things we can excuse them away'.

I disagree. Firstly we don't know for sure the exact age of this Aisha lady. Secondly, we have no idea what the moral age is to marry and have sex. That is, from a Islamic perspective, we don't know what Allah believes the moral age is to get married. Therefore what is it that Muslims actually need to defend about Mohammed? What law of Allah has he broken? How has he sinned? By all accounts, whatever her age really was, Mohammed neither broke the law of the land nor the law of his God. To prove there is an issue with what Mohammed did, his critics will have to 1) prove beyond reasonable doubt what her age was at which she married him but more particularly when he consummated the marriage with her and 2) show that his need and right to marry her (and her to marry him) at that age was outweighed by the damage he did to her as a result of his marriage to her and the consummation.

 

[RitalinOD]

It's not exactly an assertion. It's just defining the word pedophilia.

In the grand scheme of things, it's largely moot, however, the definition is simply "Sexual attraction to children". More technically, prepubescent children. That's it. Nothing else. There are no qualifiers such as only, primarily, etc.

 

[Notanumber]

Is this your standard of proof? That in order to make the claim that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was a child, the claimer must have personally witnessed it?

He does not like rational proof.

 

[Rival]

In the grand scheme of things, it's largely moot, however, the definition is simply "Sexual attraction to children". More technically, prepubescent children. That's it. Nothing else. There are no qualifiers such as only, primarily, etc.

If you insist