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For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I just looked up a verse that I first heard about years ago, which was explained to me (who did not happen to be a Torath Mosheh Jew) that God loved his people so much, that if you went up against them, it was like touching the pupil of his eye. And the way that it was explained to me those many years ago was that this was an analogy of the pain that was felt by touching a human being's eye pupil. Also, even though I found several translations that render Zechariah 2:8 this way, (including the New World Translation), the majority of translations use the words "the apple of his eyes." However, from the information that I looked up, those terms are supposed to be related and interchangeable and have a Biblical origin.

click here: Apple of My Eye - Bible Meaning, Origin and Defintion (biblestudytools.com)

But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings. Therefore, I ask them the questions: Who is Hashem? What are his motives? What does humankind mean to him? Why did he even create humans? Why did he even create anything? What's in it for him? Why does the Hebrew text say that he's patience and forgiving and that he cares about humankind when apparently, he doesn't, since he doesn't have any emotions?

Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.
 

Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
May I ask: Exactly what is a "Torath Mosheh Jew"? I've only ever seen this term "Torath Mosheh Jew" used here on these forums. I gather that it has something to do with following the Torah of Moses, which (as far as I'm aware) is something that is common to all Jews. Granted, though, there are those among us who may not be as observant as others.

I asked my rabbi (a Sephardic Jew who conducts services for both Conservative and Orthodox congregations) about the term "Torath Mosheh Jew" as used in another posting I saw on these forums, and he told me: "I assume that he is using the term Torat Mosheh to mean that one must accept the idea that Mosheh uttered every commandment in the Torah, which I think for him is not the limited definition of either a law or the Five Books of Moses, but to mean every commandment that starts in Torah and continues through time as the laws develop, a concept with which he would disagree as he would argue that all laws including those that every rabbi says in the future were known to Mosheh because he received both the Written and Oral Law. So his usage means that only observant Jews who accept that every law comes from Sinai is a true Jew."

Does the above statement from my rabbi describe what some people here are talking about when they call themselves "Torath Mosheh Jews"?

By the way, the Tanakh has that verse you asked about as being Zechariah 2:12. This differs from the Christian Bible you referenced, which has that same verse being Zechariah 2:8. It has always been my understanding that "the apple of His eye" (i.e. the pupil) symbolizes that which is most cherished. I have never heard the term used as an expression of pain.

It is my understanding that Hashem is incorporeal, and therefore incapable of feeling any physical pain. I do believe that Hashem is capable of feeling emotion, as the Tanakh frequently speaks of both Hashem's anger and love.

Again, this is my understanding, as a Jew who attends services in either Conservative or Orthodox congregations (although most frequently Conservative). I don't speak for all Jews, and I'm interested to read what others here have to say about this topic.

Shavua tov.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
May I ask: Exactly what is a "Torath Mosheh Jew"? I've only ever seen this term "Torath Mosheh Jew" used here on these forums. I gather that it has something to do with following the Torah of Moses, which (as far as I'm aware) is something that is common to all Jews. Granted, though, there are those among us who may not be as observant as others.

Thank you for your reply, Rachel. Also, I asked the same question over 6 months ago when I first came to this forum. But I think that the information in the link to the thread that I'm about to post will answer your question:

Judaism and Supplemental Material | Religious Forums

Also, you can read as much or as less as you want or need to and skip the posts that don't apply to the question that you asked. Plus, so far, the Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't seem too interested in this topic, even though I know that some of them are observing the Sabbath and do not post on the forum on Saturday. However, for those who do post on Saturday, I was wondering if my questions were too sharp or too straight forward, or just rubbed them the wrong way. But once again, thank you for your reply, Rachel.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I asked my rabbi (a Sephardic Jew who conducts services for both Conservative and Orthodox congregations) about the term "Torath Mosheh Jew" as used in another posting I saw on these forums, and he told me: "I assume that he is using the term Torat Mosheh to mean that one must accept the idea that Mosheh uttered every commandment in the Torah, which I think for him is not the limited definition of either a law or the Five Books of Moses, but to mean every commandment that starts in Torah and continues through time as the laws develop, a concept with which he would disagree as he would argue that all laws including those that every rabbi says in the future were known to Mosheh because he received both the Written and Oral Law. So his usage means that only observant Jews who accept that every law comes from Sinai is a true Jew."

Does the above statement from my rabbi describe what some people here are talking about when they call themselves "Torath Mosheh Jews"?

By the way, the Tanakh has that verse you asked about as being Zechariah 2:12. This differs from the Christian Bible you referenced, which has that same verse being Zechariah 2:8. It has always been my understanding that "the apple of His eye" (i.e. the pupil) symbolizes that which is most cherished. I have never heard the term used as an expression of pain.

It is my understanding that Hashem is incorporeal, and therefore incapable of feeling any physical pain. I do believe that Hashem is capable of feeling emotion, as the Tanakh frequently speaks of both Hashem's anger and love.

Again, this is my understanding, as a Jew who attends services in either Conservative or Orthodox congregations (although most frequently Conservative). I don't speak for all Jews, and I'm interested to read what others here have to say about this topic.

Shavua tov.

Rachel, it sounds like you fit in the same category because the way it has been explained to me at that forum (and probably in that thread link that I provided you) that Orthodox Jews are basically the same as Torath Mosheh Jews. Also, I had never heard of the Torath Mosheh Jews until about 6 plus months ago when I came to this forum. However, I will admit that I do find it a bit strange that they are such an obscure group with the claims that they make. Also, when I first heard about them at this forum, the first comparision that I made with them was with the Chrisitan group the Jehovah's Witnesses. Because out of all the Christians groups that exists, Jehovah's Witnesses are the one... (or perhaps one of the) group or groups or the main group who STRONGLY believe that they are the real, true Christians and that other Chrisitan groups have deviated from the Bible text and included pagan concepts into their versions of Chrisitanity expect for them and that they have the Bible verses and the evidence to prove it. But I digress.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@David Davidovich ,

As usual you are asking the right questions, and yes, taken to it's logical conclusion all of the issues you raised are valid.

I would like to 2nd @Rachel Rugelach , the notion that God has no emotions is not really Torath Mosheh. Arguably it's the opposite of Torath Mosheh. It's Rambam, who, in spite of his brillance has critics for good reason. And this idea of no-emotions is not ancient.

When it comes to who is HaShem if one is an adherent to Rambam's philosophy, the answer is, HaShem is a force. And our actions, do not effect a change in HaShem, they effect a change in us. And this change illicits a response because of something akin to natural laws. Cause and effect, cold, unfeeling, and amoral.

This chapter of Rambam's later work may help explain the POV. Also the following chapter.

Guide for the Perplexed: Part I: Chapter LVI

So, if HaShem is imagined this way, the reason for following the law is simply self-preservation, self-interest, and interest in a better world. HaShem created everything and following the rules is like wearing a jacket in the cold and encouraging others to do the same.

I personally do not agree with Rambam's conclusion. He is essentially trading one heresy for another. I can elaborate if there's interest.
 
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Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
Thank you for your reply, Rachel. Also, I asked the same question over 6 months ago when I first came to this forum. But I think that the information in the link to the thread that I'm about to post will answer your question:

Judaism and Supplemental Material | Religious Forums

Also, you can read as much or as less as you want or need to and skip the posts that don't apply to the question that you asked. Plus, so far, the Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't seem too interested in this topic, even though I know that some of them are observing the Sabbath and do not post on the forum on Saturday. However, for those who do post on Saturday, I was wondering if my questions were too sharp or too straight forward, or just rubbed them the wrong way. But once again, thank you for your reply, Rachel.

You're welcome, @David Davidovich. I read through some of the posts at that link you supplied. I still don't think I quite "get" the need for the additional Torath Mosheh designation. While I may state what congregations I attend for services (Conservative and Orthodox), I tend to agree with the Rebbe (OBM) who believed that it is enough that we simply call ourselves "Jews." To quote the Rebbe: "Labels are for shoes and shirts, not for Jews." :)

Shabbos ends for many of us Jews at different times, depending on when sundown on Saturday occurs where we live. So that may be why other Jews may not have logged onto the forum here yet and seen your question, if they might be inclined to respond. Although I see that @dybmh has joined the conversation now. *waves to @dybmh*

I personally didn't think your questions were "too sharp," and you seem respectful and naturally curious to me.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
May I ask: Exactly what is a "Torath Mosheh Jew"? I've only ever seen this term "Torath Mosheh Jew" used here on these forums. I gather that it has something to do with following the Torah of Moses, which (as far as I'm aware) is something that is common to all Jews. Granted, though, there are those among us who may not be as observant as others.

The following may help.

upload_2023-2-19_11-48-34.png


 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings. Therefore, I ask them the questions: Who is Hashem?

The most simple answer in English would be that Hashem is the Source of all forms of reality. Hashem was not created and is not subject to something else. There are is a tendancy to talk about Hashem in negatives, meaning is not this or that, etc. The reason is because Hashem beyond human reasoning. Yet, the Torah is the path with Jews can reason with Hashem.

What are his motives?

If you mean, towards humanity. There is a common thread in Torath Mosheh texts that points the idea that Hashem created a reality for humans to exist in it, to give the Torah to the Israeli/Jewish people, and to provide the ability for reality to benefit humanity.

What does humankind mean to him?

Humanity means a species that has the ability to have free will and the ability to use the elements of logic that Hashem placed in humanity.

Why did he even create humans?

Same as the above answer, and for the possibility for the Torah to be kept by a segment of humanity.

Why did he even create anything?

Simple answer. Because Hashem chose to. There is no more complex answer. Hashem didn't have to but he did. Essentially, a combination of the above answers can cover a number of sources.

What's in it for him?

Rav Saadya Gaon and Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (also known as the Rambam) posited that Hashem doesn't operate in that way. I.e. the concept of a benefit doesn't exist when dealing wiht something that a) is the source, b) created out a choice to do so, and c) doesn't rely on or need its creations.

Why does the Hebrew text say that he's patience and forgiving and that he cares about humankind when apparently, he doesn't, since he doesn't have any emotions?

In the Mishnah it is discussed that the Torah was written in the language of humanity. Meaning that the Torah is for the Israeli/Jewish people to deal with the reality Hashem created. The Torah could be written in some high level metaphysical way where only a small amount of Jews would ever understand it or it can be written the way that humans/Jews actually talk. This is one of the reasons that an Oral Torah was given. I.e. to help with digging into the details.

The Rambam, for example, equated the concept of emotions in the text to what we as humans experience from the reality Hashem created. For example, Hashem provides a planet, resources, and the ability to be protected, etc. and a response is that a human feels love. Hashem protected the Jewish people from our enemies and we say that Hashem protects us. Hashem gives us the ability to escape our enemies and overpower them when they want to destroy the Jewish people and we say that Hashem is giving us mercy. Hashem gives the Jewish people the ability to make mistakes and come back from the those mistakes w/o abandoning us completely and we can say that Hashem is being patient and forgiving.

Thus, the terms of emotions are what we as humans experience and it what we perceive as changes in the nature of Hashem. Yet, there is a part of the Tanakh that states that Hashem doesn't change.

Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.

The answer to this is listed above, but I will state it like this. Because Hashem gave the Torah to the our ancestors at Mount Sinai by bringing them out of Egypt and gave us the abiliy to be in the land of Israel and because Hashem has, even in exile, kept the Jewish people in existance we say that because of all that we, as humans, perceive that as love. We also recognize that Hashem is beyond our perception, YET even with that being the case we can feel these emotions and using the langauge of humans apply that to Hashem ourselves.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
You're welcome, @David Davidovich. I read through some of the posts at that link you supplied. I still don't think I quite "get" the need for the additional Torath Mosheh designation. While I may state what congregations I attend for services (Conservative and Orthodox), I tend to agree with the Rebbe (OBM) who believed that it is enough that we simply call ourselves "Jews." To quote the Rebbe: "Labels are for shoes and shirts, not for Jews." :)

Greetings Rachel. I will tell you a few of the reasons.
  1. The term Orthodox is not something is universal to Torah based Jews. For example, in Yemenite Jewish communities and Iraqi Jewish communities there was no such term as Orthodox nor Reform nor Conservative. So, Torath Mosheh is a term used in Hebrew by a number of rishonim to describe the Torah that was received from Mount Sinai, both written in Oral.
  2. If someone is discussing Torah that was received at Mount Sinai, but they use the term Judaism, that can easily mean something that is not from Mount Sinai at all.
  3. Also, some of the people who have questions on this forum get confused by the various "modern movements" titles and they are asking questions about how anciently Jews who kept Torah and Halakha perceived/percieve things w/o an opinion that is not ancient or authorative.
It is not an additional designation. It makes it easier to talk about the topic w/o having to go through the whole modern movements out of Europe discussion which sometimes caused tension.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Rachel, it sounds like you fit in the same category because the way it has been explained to me at that forum (and probably in that thread link that I provided you) that Orthodox Jews are basically the same as Torath Mosheh Jews. Also, I had never heard of the Torath Mosheh Jews until about 6 plus months ago when I came to this forum. However, I will admit that I do find it a bit strange that they are such an obscure group with the claims that they make.

I will have to explain it to you in away that I explained it from the start. Torath Mosheh is a term used by numerous Jewish rabbis throughout Jewish history and throughout ancient. Its first use is from the prophet Malakhi. The term does not describe a movement or an obscure group. It describes any Jew who holds by the Torah (written and oral) that was received by the entire Israeli/Jewish at Mount Sinai and the Talmud - which all ancient Jewish communities took on in leu of there no longer being a Sanhedrin.
  1. I will have to explain it to you in the way that I explained it from the start.
  2. Torath Mosheh is a term used by numerous Jewish rabbis throughout Jewish history and throughout ancient. Its first use is from the prophet Malakhi.
  3. The term does not describe a movement or an obscure group. It describes any Jew who holds by the Torah (written and oral) that was received by the entire Israeli/Jewish at Mount Sinai, the rulings that came from when there was a Sanhedrin, and the Talmud - which all ancient Jewish communities took on in leu of there no longer being a Sanhedrin.
  4. A Jew who, for example, says that Hashem doesn't exist, obviously can't claim to be holding by Torath Mosheh. Nor do they claim to be.
  5. A Jew who, for example, claims that the Torah was never given at Mount Sinai can't claim to be holding by Torath Mosheh. Nor do they claim to be.
  6. A Jew who, for example, claims that mitzvoth that Hashem gave to the Israeli/Jewish people eternally are all of a sudden invalid, incorrect, and don’t have to be done can’t claim to be holding by Torath Mosheh.
    Thus, when describing Jews who hold by the Torah that all ancient Jewish communities claim came from Hashem, Torath Mosheh Jew is a term to describe what connects them. I.e. the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai.
upload_2023-2-19_18-51-44.png

upload_2023-2-19_18-50-28.png
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.

The following may help.

G-d doesn't have emotions? Why?

After the flood, Genesis recounts Hashem in a state of regret, “His heart was saddened.” Radak explains that: “When it says that He ‘regretted,’ this is the Torah speaking in human terms (Rabbi Ishmael), for in truth, ‘He is not human that He should change his mind [le-hinahem]’ (I Sam. 15:29), for in the Almighty there is no change of will.” Ibn Ezra and Maimonides agreed that the Torah ascribes emotions to Hashem figuratively.

Whenever any one of His actions is perceived by us, we ascribe to Hashem that emotion which is the source of the act when performed by ourselves, and call Him by an epithet which is formed from the verb expressing that emotion. We see, e.g., how well He provides for the life of the embryo of living beings; how He endows with certain faculties both the embryo itself and those who have to rear it after its birth, in order that it may be protected from death and destruction, guarded against all harm, and assisted in the performance of all that is required [for its development]. Similar acts, when performed by us, are due to a certain emotion and tenderness called mercy and pity. Hashem is, therefore, said to be merciful: e.g., "Like as a father is merciful to his children, so the L-rd is merciful to them that fear Him" (Ps. ciii. 13); "And I will spare them, as a man spareth (yaḥamol) his own son that serveth him" (Mal. iii. 17). Such instances do not imply that Hashem is influenced by a feeling of mercy, but that acts similar to those which a father performs for his son, out of pity, mercy and real affection, emanate from Hashem solely for the benefit of His pious men, and are by no means the result of any impression or change--[produced in Hashem].--When we give something to a person who has no claim upon us, we perform an act of grace; e.g., "Grant them graciously unto us" (Judges xxi. 22). [The same term is used in reference to Hashem, e.g.] "which Hashem hath graciously given" (Gen. xxxiii. 5); "Because Hashem hath dealt graciously with me" (ib. 11). Instances of this kind are numerous. Hashem creates and guides beings who have no claim upon Him to be created and guided by Him; He is therefore called gracious (ḥannun)--His actions towards mankind also include great calamities, which overtake individuals and bring death to them, or affect whole families and even entire regions, spread death, destroy generation after generation, and spare nothing whatsoever. Hence there occur inundations, earthquakes, destructive storms, expeditions of one nation against the other for the sake of destroying it with the sword and blotting out its memory, and many other evils of the same kind. Whenever such evils are caused by us to any person, they originate in great anger, violent jealousy, or a desire for revenge. Hashem is therefore called, because of these acts, "jealous," "revengeful," "wrathful," and "keeping anger" (Nah. i. 2) that is to say, He performs acts similar to those which, when performed by us, originate in certain psychical dispositions, in jealousy, desire for retaliation, revenge, or anger: they are in accordance with the guilt of those who are to be punished, and not the result of any emotion: for He is above all defect! The same is the case with all divine acts: though resembling those acts which emanate from our passions and psychical dispositions, they are not due to anything superadded to His essence. (Friedlander translation)
"For He is above all defect!" Since God is perfect, Hshem does not have human emotions. According to Rambam, Hashem does not become angry. When the Bible says that Hashem becomes angry this is there to prompt people to act properly. The Rambam continues:

You, no doubt, know the Talmudical saying, which includes in itself all the various kinds of interpretation connected with our subject. It runs thus: “The Torah speaks according to the language of man,” that is to say, expressions, which can easily be comprehended and understood by all, are applied to the Creator. Hence the description of G-d by attributes implying corporeality, in order to express His existence: because the multitude of people do not easily conceive existence unless in connection with a body, and that which is not a body nor connected with a body has for them no existence. (Guide for the Perplexed 1.26; Friedlander translation, p. 111)[1]​
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Also, I will point out that there is the following from the Tanakh.

Bemidbar (Numbers) 23:19
upload_2023-2-19_19-5-21.png


Also

Malakhi 3:6
upload_2023-2-19_19-11-22.png
 

Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
Greetings Rachel. I will tell you a few of the reasons.
  1. The term Orthodox is not something is universal to Torah based Jews. For example, in Yemenite Jewish communities and Iraqi Jewish communities there was no such term as Orthodox nor Reform nor Conservative. So, Torath Mosheh is a term used in Hebrew by a number of rishonim to describe the Torah that was received from Mount Sinai, both written in Oral.
  2. If someone is discussing Torah that was received at Mount Sinai, but they use the term Judaism, that can easily mean something that is not from Mount Sinai at all.
  3. Also, some of the people who have questions on this forum get confused by the various "modern movements" titles and they are asking questions about how anciently Jews who kept Torah and Halakha perceived/percieve things w/o an opinion that is not ancient or authorative.
It is not an additional designation. It makes it easier to talk about the topic w/o having to go through the whole modern movements out of Europe discussion which sometimes caused tension.

I see. So, do you consider the Karaites to be Torath Mosheh Jews?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I see. So, do you consider the Karaites to be Torath Mosheh Jews?

No. They reject Oral Torah and try to replace it with their own systems they call Heqesh and Sevel Hayerusha. Both are essentially their claim to an Oral Torah but they don't like that inference being made about their systems. I asked some of them about this and they got touchy.

The same would apply to the Samaritans, even though they claim to have an Oral Torah. They reject the correct one that came from Mount Sinai and they have tried to make Mount Gerizim into the place that Hashem chose.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Ehav4Ever ,

The first problem with this notion of HaShem lacking emotions, is that HaShem doesn't lack anything. Claiming that I have something, which HaShem cannot have descrbes a god which is incomplete and imperfect. Is HaShem limited in scope?

The second problem is claiming that HaShem cannot change puts a limit on HaShem's power. This describes a god which is limited in what it can or cannot choose to do. Is HaShem limited in power?

The third problem is that the Torah justification for the idea that HaShem doesn't change is itself a statement communicated in human terms. You'll note that the verse in 2 Samuel talks about HaShem's "mind". Further these verses about HaShem not changing are taken out of context. Is the Torah written in human language? If so, shouldn't that be applied consistently?
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Also, I will point out that there is the following from the Tanakh.

Bemidbar (Numbers) 23:19
View attachment 71835

Also

Malakhi 3:6
View attachment 71836
In regard to emotions, it seems like the following are being overlooked?

וְיָֽדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַֽהֲשֵֽׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָֽאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עֽוֹד׃

"אֵין עֽוֹד"!

and

יְהֹוָה אֵל עֶלְיוֹן קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ׃

"קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ"

Therefore, anything that exists here, is possessed by HaShem? There is nothing else?
 
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Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
No. They reject Oral Torah and try to replace it with their own systems they call Heqesh and Sevel Hayerusha. Both are essentially their claim to an Oral Torah but they don't like that inference being made about their systems. I asked some of them about this and they got touchy.

The same would apply to the Samaritans, even though they claim to have an Oral Torah. They reject the correct one that came from Mount Sinai and they have tried to make Mount Gerizim into the place that Hashem chose.

I see. I listened to your YouTube video for which you provided the link. Please forgive me if I made any mistake in these words I transcribed from your video describing what a Torath Mosheh Jew is: "You are keeping the Torah that Mosheh Rabbeinu gave at Mount Sinai as well as the Oral and Written Torah and the aspects of it that were kept among the sages of Israel that has been transmitted through all various Jewish communities from the ancient to the modern era."

Can you please explain why you include Modern Orthodox Judaism within your circle of Torath Mosheh (as shown in the graphic you provided), but exclude Masorti Judaism? When it comes to your cut-off date between "ancient" and "modern," Modern Orthodox Judaism is not really so ancient. Additionally, Masorti (or Conservative Judaism) views Jewish Law as being binding, unlike Reform Judaism.

I attend both Conservative and Orthodox services, although more frequently Conservative and my membership support is with a Conservative congregation. I am not complaining about perhaps not being considered "Jewish enough" within your view of Torath Mosheh, as I'm content and confident of my own place within Judaism and Hashem's embrace. I am only trying to understand your designation of Torath Mosheh, as you are the only person whom I have ever encountered to be advancing this concept -- not only here on this forum but also in the YouTube videos that you have made yourself, and a self-published book of yours that I found online. I don't mean to be disrespectful and I hope that I'm not coming off that way, but may I ask: Are there others whom you can name that are promoting the concept of Torath Mosheh, that I might read what they say, as well? Do you belong to a congregation that identifies entirely as Torath Mosheh? I have noticed that you list "Torath Mosheh" as your religion in your forum profile, rather than simply using the terms "Judaism" or "Jewish" as every other Jew on this forum has done.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I see. I listened to your YouTube video for which you provided the link. Please forgive me if I made any mistake in these words I transcribed from your video describing what a Torath Mosheh Jew is: "You are keeping the Torah that Mosheh Rabbeinu gave at Mount Sinai as well as the Oral and Written Torah and the aspects of it that were kept among the sages of Israel that has been transmitted through all various Jewish communities from the ancient to the modern era."

Greetings Rachel. It is important to note that Torath Mosheh includes the rulings of the Sanhedrins on halakha as I mentioned in the video.

upload_2023-2-19_21-2-22.png


Can you please explain why you include Modern Orthodox Judaism within your circle of Torath Mosheh (as shown in the graphic you provided), but exclude Masorti Judaism?

Sure, the following may explain why.

upload_2023-2-19_20-35-48.png

If you look at one of my other posts I showed what the history of what Orthodox Judaism was in Europe.

The Masorti/Conservative movement would be excluded from the title of Torath Mosheh because, as a movement it is not derived directly from a Torath Mosheh source. It according to the history that the movement attests to it was a response to both the Orthodox and Reform movement. It doesn't claim to have been any way directly connected to anything ancient. Thus, if you look in the Sephardic, Mizrahhi, Yemenite, Ethopian, and Magrebi Jewish communities you won't find anything similar to the the Masorti movement.

When it comes to your cut-off date between "ancient" and "modern," Modern Orthodox Judaism is not really so ancient. Additionally, Masorti (or Conservative Judaism) views Jewish Law as being binding, unlike Reform Judaism.

See my above comments. Modern Orthodox was a movement that is within the Orthodox Jewish world. Further, most if not all of them claim that the Torah was given by Hashem at Mount Sinai, the rulings/halakha of the Sanhedrins is to be kept, and that the foundations that Torah are the basis of a Torah based approach to reality.

I attend both Conservative and Orthodox services, although more frequently Conservative and my membership support is with a Conservative congregation. I am not complaining about perhaps not being considered "Jewish enough" within your view of Torath Mosheh

There is no such thing as being "Jewish enough." Consider the following questions.
  1. Historically speaking, did Hashem give the Torah as it is claimed by the written Torah and also Hazal?
  2. Is halakha from a Sanhedrin binding?
  3. Does any group of Jews, or a movement of Jews, have the ability to overturn a) mitzvoth that Hashem gave and b) halakha from a Sanhedrin?
I am only trying to understand your designation of Torath Mosheh

I don't know how good your Hebrew is but try the following. Do a google search on (תורת משה). You will find the statement is mentioned numerous times in the Tanakh, by both the Rishonim and the Ahoronim, etc. Then consider, what did they mean by using the term? For example.

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as you are the only person whom I have ever encountered to be advancing this concept Are there others whom you can name that are promoting the concept of Torath Mosheh, that I might read what they say, as well? Do you belong to a congregation that identifies entirely as Torath Mosheh?

Sure, look at the above that I posted. I have highlighted places where (תורת משה) is mentioned and each of these books they define what it is. Further, if you look in the Torath Mosheh video from 1:32 to 9:24 I gave sources, additional to the above.
 
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