For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[cataway]

I showed you the bibles illustrations.

nope

 

[Colt]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

It doesn't bother me because Christ Michael is a Son OF the Trinity, created by the Trinity and divine in his own right.

 

[Kenny]

Moreover, scriptures, many many times declares GOD as the creator, and, indeed, His very title, ‘The Father’, means:

• ‘He that is the Creator’
• ‘He that brings into being’

Col 1:5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

• ‘He that gives life’

Jesus 1: 4 In Him was life, and the life was )the Light of mankind.
John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

Which of those title wordings apply to ‘the Son’?

All of them.

 

[Soapy]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

SeekAndFind, you may think that you found God and Christ but you still need to know the truth.

Jesus is not God… that’s a start.

Jesus did not create all things…. Jesus did not create anything - You need to learn that.

GOD created all things FOR THE SON who would be.

How does the Bible say that ‘In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth…’ and then you agree that ‘Jesus is not God’ !!

Can you not understand simple things:

• God was alone - in a SPIRIT Realm … then God decided to create a world - a PHYSICAL realm
• GOD created beings to be HEAD of that world - beings in his own image - MAN
• God proposed that ONE of such MAN - A PURE SINLESS MAN (an ADAM) should be KING of the PHYSICAL realm JUST as He is KING of the Spirit Realm
• The first man, Adam, was given all powers over the created world but he sinned. God was angry with him and even proposed destroying man and the world that He had created. But because man is made in His image - His children - God relented and proposed that if AN OFFSPRING of Adam were to OFFER HIMSELF ASCA SACRIFICE for the Sin of Adam then God would remove the sin of Adam…
• That sin of Adam CONDEMNED all mankind to die - an eternal death - in time. God said that if one man could live without sinning then that eternal death would be removed
• Over time, no man was found to live without sinning, even the greatest sin love of God, Abraham, David, Solomon… all sinned
• God had proposed from the beginning that there should be another solution: Another PURE SINLESS MAN…. Another ‘Adam’. A Second Adam, a LAST Adam: Jesus Christ!!
• God prophesied that this ‘Last Adam’ will surely do His bidding:
  • ‘Here is my Servant, my beloved WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. I will put MY SPIRIT on him and he will do my bidding.,,’ (Isaiah 42:1) and the Apostles also say:
  • ‘Did you not hear that after the baptism that John taught, how GOD ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with HOLY SPIRIT AND POWER… and he went around healing all who came to him…’ (Paraphrased - Acts 10:37-38)
• Can you not understand - Jesus was ANOINTED BY GOD… With the spirit of God - and thus Jesus is then called ‘Christ’. Jesus did nothing BEFORE he was anointed… but only afterwards. When God placed His spirit on Jesus, Jesus THEN WENT AROUND doing good and healing all who came to him
• Thus, Jesus Christ was the one who offered himself as the sacrifice, the sacrificial lamb that ‘takes away the eternal sin of Adam’ - the ‘Scapegoat’ and blood sacrifice - Death of one holy man who paid the price for the whole of mankind
• Thus, God raised him up again AND MADE HIM to be RULER OVER ALL CREATION. God made him to be KING over all mankind to whom all knees will bow

That is how it is.

 

[Brian2]

• Can you not understand - Jesus was ANOINTED BY GOD… With the spirit of God - and thus Jesus is then called ‘Christ’. Jesus did nothing BEFORE he was anointed… but only afterwards. When God placed His spirit on Jesus, Jesus THEN WENT AROUND doing good and healing all who came to him

But Jesus was the Christ before He was anointed with the Spirit at His baptism.
That anointing was for Jesus to be given the power to do the things that He would do during His ministry years.
The anointing was not to make Him the Christ or to make Him the Son of God.

 

[Soapy]

Kenny, everything you said was taken out of context and you cannot see got yourself why that is??

Col 1:5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

He is THE IMAGE of the invisible God.
An image can only imitate what the SOURCE does.

How does the IMAGE create UNLESS the SOURCE first creates…??? Even Jesus Christ says:

• ‘I can do nothing except I first see the Father doing!’

And so what did the source first create; What did GOD first create that the Son of God afterwards [also!] create?

And ‘The firstborn OVER all Creation’ is not the same as ‘The first born OF all creation’…

You, yourself, Will agree that Jesus was never BORN as first of creation… There is a thread asking this question and everyone agrees that Jesus was NEVER BORN AS FIRST OF CREATION!!

That’s because the word is not ‘FIRST BORN’ (born first, chronologically in time as first from the womb) but ‘FIRSTBORN’, which means:

• ‘The most loved’ by the Father
• The ‘Firstborn’ is the one the father holds dearest to himself over the brethren of that firstborn. We have examples such as:
  • isaac over Ishmael;
  • Jacob over Esau;
  • Joseph over Rueben
  • David over Eliab
  • Solomon over Adonijah
  • JESUS over ADAM
  • The Second Covenant over the First covenant
  • The World to come over the World that was
  • The Second Coming over the First coming
• Understand this:
  • ‘For he takes away the first in order to establish another’
  • ‘For if there had been no fault in the FIRST then there would have been no need for a SECOND’

Jesus Christ is the most loved of all creation. God made him to be the Head of all creatures and Jesus proved to be just so when he laid down his life to save mankind.

And before that, God said ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased!’ Which echoes Isaiah 42:1: I will put my spirit on him and he will do my bidding!’

Which means that it is after Jesus is ANOINTED by God, after Jesus is given POWER from God, that Jesus ‘Goes around doing good and healing all who comes to him!’

Can you criticise anything that has been said?
Which part and why?

Jesus 1: 4 In Him was life, and the life was )the Light of mankind.

Jesus only gave those who believe in THE RIGHT TO LIFE. This is because THE FATHER GRANTED him to have life in himself:

• ‘As the Father has life in Him SO HE HAS ALSO GRANTED the son to have life in himself.’

At the end of time, at the judgement seat, that is when Jesus Christ GRANTS the believers to have Eternal life. Hence, it is then that Jesus is called ‘ETERNAL FATHER’… because it then that Jesus ‘GIVES ETERNAL LIFE’.

The other titles never apply to Jesus Christ - neither:

• ‘He that brings into being…’

nor:

• ‘He that creates’

John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

How do you quote a truth and claim I tell a lie???
‘NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER….’ except through the image of the Father!

It is the FATHER to whom we are led by the truth brought to us BY THE SON.

Jesus is akin to a lamp (which is the word of God) which if we follows ITS LIGHT (which is truth) will lead us in the way to almighty God; the Father.

 

[Soapy]

But Jesus was the Christ before He was anointed with the Spirit at His baptism.
That anointing was for Jesus to be given the power to do the things that He would do during His ministry years.
The anointing was not to make Him the Christ or to make Him the Son of God.

Brian2, I do not know if you have been given leave to say wrongful things but again I urge you to think and not allow yourself to be used as a Devils Advocate.

‘CHRIST’ means ‘Anointed one’.
Before God anointed Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 10:38) he was not known as ‘Jesus Christ’. All references previous were IN PROPHESY, which is to say, “He WILL BE CALLED ‘Christ’.”

How can Jesus be ‘Christ / Anointed one’ until he was anointed WITH the spirit of God?

God prophesied: ‘Here is MY SERVANT in whom I am well pleased, My CHOSEN ONE… ON WHOM I WILL PLACE MY SPIRIT…’

Thus, in the fullness of time, God identified this ‘SERVANT’ at the river Jordan and, after putting His Spirit upon Jesus, said:

• ‘This is my Son [SERVANT] in whom I am well pleased!’

Thus Jesus BECAME ‘Christ’… and straightway went into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.

Upon his return, on the first Sabbath, Jesus read from the scriptures at the place where it is written:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free..” (Luke 4:18)

which echoes:

• “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,” (Isaiah 61:1)

(Luke 4:22) ‘All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.’…

So, up to this point everyone only knew Jesus as ‘Son of Joseph’ and ‘Jesus of Nazareth’….!! It is because we have the present knowledge of the scriptures that we claim him as ‘Son of God’.

Even as those disciples who walked and ate with Jesus Christ, he asked: ‘… who do you say I am?’ Today, we declare him to be Son of God but it was not always certain to many in the time of Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

‘CHRIST’ means ‘Anointed one’.
Before God anointed Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 10:38) he was not known as ‘Jesus Christ’. All references previous were IN PROPHESY, which is to say, “He WILL BE CALLED ‘Christ’.”

Jesus is called Christ and Lord before being baptised. This is not prophecy and does not say "He WILL BE CALLED Christ". What you are saying is not true.

How can Jesus be ‘Christ / Anointed one’ until he was anointed WITH the spirit of God?

Since He was the Christ before being baptised, that means that His baptism is not when He became the Christ.

God prophesied: ‘Here is MY SERVANT in whom I am well pleased, My CHOSEN ONE… ON WHOM I WILL PLACE MY SPIRIT…’

Show me that prophecy instead of quoting things out of context.

Thus, in the fullness of time, God identified this ‘SERVANT’ at the river Jordan and, after putting His Spirit upon Jesus, said:

• ‘This is my Son [SERVANT] in whom I am well pleased!’

Thus Jesus BECAME ‘Christ’… and straightway went into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.

You want to make it look like what you are saying is logical, but there is no logic there. Jesus was the Son of God before being baptised and was the Christ before being baptised. I can show you scriptures which tell us that. You are just making up stuff about the meaning of the scriptures which is not actually in the scriptures.

Upon his return, on the first Sabbath, Jesus read from the scriptures at the place where it is written:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free..” (Luke 4:18)

which echoes:

• “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,” (Isaiah 61:1)

Many people were anointed with the Spirit for the work of God. In this case the Christ was anointed for the work of God. The one who was already the Christ (Luke 2:11) was anointed with the Spirit for the work of God.

(Luke 4:22) ‘All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.’…

So, up to this point everyone only knew Jesus as ‘Son of Joseph’ and ‘Jesus of Nazareth’….!! It is because we have the present knowledge of the scriptures that we claim him as ‘Son of God’.

Even as those disciples who walked and ate with Jesus Christ, he asked: ‘… who do you say I am?’ Today, we declare him to be Son of God but it was not always certain to many in the time of Jesus.

Luke 2:46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when his parents[g] saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?

The Son of God was about His Father's work but went home with His parents and waited until God showed Him the right time to be doing His Father's work.

Luke 2:” 50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually it can still be credited to God as being the Creator even though he let Jesus take part. To illustrate think of and engineer drawing up a floor plan for a building. He then passes that plant to the biulder. Who gets the credit for the building design? Isnt it the engineer as it was his plan. In the same sense God is the creator as it was his plan. Jesus followed the blueprints, so to speak.

It that what the scriptures teach?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Col 1:15-16

"Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

There are more scriptures but hopefully this makes the point.

Hardly, they do not contradict the monotheism of One God and have to be extrapolated to interpret a Tritheistic God.

The concept of the Polytheistic Trinity actually came late with the Roman Church.

 

[Kenny]

He is THE IMAGE of the invisible God.
An image can only imitate what the SOURCE does.

How does the IMAGE create UNLESS the SOURCE first creates…??? Even Jesus Christ says:

• ‘I can do nothing except I first see the Father doing!’

And so what did the source first create; What did GOD first create that the Son of God afterwards [also!] create?

And ‘The firstborn OVER all Creation’ is not the same as ‘The first born OF all creation’…

You, yourself, Will agree that Jesus was never BORN as first of creation… There is a thread asking this question and everyone agrees that Jesus was NEVER BORN AS FIRST OF CREATION!!

That’s because the word is not ‘FIRST BORN’ (born first, chronologically in time as first from the womb) but ‘FIRSTBORN’, which means:

• ‘The most loved’ by the Father
• The ‘Firstborn’ is the one the father holds dearest to himself over the brethren of that firstborn. We have examples such as:
  • isaac over Ishmael;
  • Jacob over Esau;
  • Joseph over Rueben
  • David over Eliab
  • Solomon over Adonijah
  • JESUS over ADAM
  • The Second Covenant over the First covenant
  • The World to come over the World that was
  • The Second Coming over the First coming
• Understand this:
  • ‘For he takes away the first in order to establish another’
  • ‘For if there had been no fault in the FIRST then there would have been no need for a SECOND’

Jesus Christ is the most loved of all creation. God made him to be the Head of all creatures and Jesus proved to be just so when he laid down his life to save mankind.

And before that, God said ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased!’ Which echoes Isaiah 42:1: I will put my spirit on him and he will do my bidding!’

Which means that it is after Jesus is ANOINTED by God, after Jesus is given POWER from God, that Jesus ‘Goes around doing good and healing all who comes to him!’

Can you criticise anything that has been said?
Which part and why?

WOW... what a HUGE effort vs a simple understandable statement of " for by Him all things were created"

Mine seems so much simpler

Jesus only gave those who believe in THE RIGHT TO LIFE. This is because THE FATHER GRANTED him to have life in himself:

• ‘As the Father has life in Him SO HE HAS ALSO GRANTED the son to have life in himself.’

At the end of time, at the judgement seat, that is when Jesus Christ GRANTS the believers to have Eternal life. Hence, it is then that Jesus is called ‘ETERNAL FATHER’… because it then that Jesus ‘GIVES ETERNAL LIFE’.

The other titles never apply to Jesus Christ - neither:

• ‘He that brings into being…’

nor:

• ‘He that creates’

WOW - another amazing effort when Jesus said "I am the life" - so much simpler

How do you quote a truth and claim I tell a lie???
‘NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER….’ except through the image of the Father!

It is the FATHER to whom we are led by the truth brought to us BY THE SON.

Jesus is akin to a lamp (which is the word of God) which if we follows ITS LIGHT (which is truth) will lead us in the way to almighty God; the Father.

WOW... what an amazing effort to a simple statement that Jesus made "I am the way, the truth and the life".

Of course, none of what you said changed that Jesus was all that I said.

On a side note... who is The Shepherd; Peace; and Righteousness?

 

[Soapy]

WOW... what a HUGE effort vs a simple understandable statement of " for by Him all things were created"

Mine seems so much simpler
WOW - another amazing effort when Jesus said "I am the life" - so much simpler
WOW... what an amazing effort to a simple statement that Jesus made "I am the way, the truth and the life".

Of course, none of what you said changed that Jesus was all that I said.

No, Kenny, what you said, everything you said, was wrong!!!

On a side note... who is The Shepherd; Peace; and Righteousness?

The Shephetd is not the owner of the sheep. The shepherd tends and cares for the sheep for the OWNER.

The owner of the sheep is Almighty God.

Jesus Christ is the PRINCE of Peace…
Who is the KING of peace?
Which is greater: Prince, or King?

Righteousness:

• “The days are coming,” declares YHWH, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.” (Jeremiah 23:5)
• “See, a king will reign in righteousness and rulers will rule with justice.” (Isaiah 32:1)

Jesus is the PROPHESIED righteous King from the loins of David… a man from the lineage of the man. David.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Kenny]

No, Kenny, what you said, everything you said, was wrong!!!

The Shephetd is not the owner of the sheep. The shepherd tends and cares for the sheep for the OWNER.

The owner of the sheep is Almighty God.

Jesus Christ is the PRINCE of Peace…
Who is the KING of peace?
Which is greater: Prince, or King?

ROFL... It was me that had to write a thesis to explain it away.

 

[Soapy]

ROFL... It was me that had to write a thesis to explain it away.

Kenny, it is the truth that you fight against - not me!

The true verse is:

• ‘FOR HIM all things were created’

The trinitarian translators added the word ‘By’ in order to make it seem that the verse should read:

• ‘For BY him all things were created’

God created a world for a beloved Son who would rule over it. That Son, a flesh being, is to rule over the flesh world - just as He, YHWH God, is Spirit who rules over the Spirit world.

You say, ‘simple’… well that is simple!
Spirit ruler over the Spirit world; Human ruler over the Human world.

God created it FOR HIM… and at the end of time Jesus Christ, a physical, created human being, is made Ruler over the created flesh, physical, human, world: The ruler over God’s creation!

 

[shunyadragon]

ROFL... It was me that had to write a thesis to explain it away.

Thesis on the subject has been written by tens of thousands without resolution.

 

[Soapy]

Thesis on the subject has been written by tens of thousands without resolution.

Yes, but each individual writes their own thesis.

Kenny has not written any thesis - he just likes to think he has … since if he had written a thesis he would have realised that his belief doesn’t work.

For instance, the last claim about: ‘For by him all things were made!’

Here are some points:

1. The Son can only do what he first sees the Father do….
2. The Trinity (or Binity) claim is that the Son created all things
3. Did the Father then FIRST CREATE SLL THINGS AND THEN having seen, the Son then also created ALL THINGS….???

But rather, consider that it is more likely that a Father would create something that he would pass onto a Son:

1. The Father is God… God who created all things: ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…’
2. It is admitted that Jesus is not God…
3. It is admitted that the Son is not [FIRST] BORN as thd first created being (See my thread on the subject)
4. So the verse in question is therefore:
   1. ‘The Father created all things FOR THE SON’
   2. ‘For him (the Son) all things were created [by the Father]’
   3. Trinity altered the scriptures so it now reads: ‘For BY him all things were created’
5. And, indeed, at the end of time, the Son becomes ‘The Ruler over the creation of the Father’

If Kenny can justify his claim that the Son, somehow pre-existent despite any evidence, created all things FOR HIMSELF, then he must show it… but he won’t because he can’t!!!

 

[Kenny]

Thesis on the subject has been written by tens of thousands without resolution.

Jesus Christ will always be an issue with people having no resolution... until they meet Him and understand.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus Christ will always be an issue with people having no resolution... until they meet Him and understand.

The truth is written in the Gospels. But Satan doesn’t want it to be read in truth so he has scattered seeds of untruth within them. The uninitiated will take those seeds of untruth literally and believe them even though with only a moments thought it can be seen as they are - deceitful renderings.

GOD created all things … That’s why GOD is called ‘Father’. And ‘Father’ mean:

• He who creates;
• He who gives life;
• He who brings into being…

Because Jesus Christ proved to be the Son of his love (‘The begotten Son’, ‘the firstborn of his love’) God GRANTED Jesus to be the life giver of those whom Jesus judges as worthy at the end of time. This what the verse means:

• ‘In him was life… and as many as believed on him he gave them the right to have life in him.’

It says nothing about a pre-existent Jesus giving life to those at the beginning of time (Who? Adam and Eve?)

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but each individual writes their own thesis.

Kenny has not written any thesis - he just likes to think he has … since if he had written a thesis he would have realised that his belief doesn’t work.

For instance, the last claim about: ‘For by him all things were made!’

Here are some points:

1. The Son can only do what he first sees the Father do….
2. The Trinity (or Binity) claim is that the Son created all things
3. Did the Father then first create all things AND THEN having seen, the Son then also created ALL THINGS….???

But rather, consider that it is more likely that a Father would create something that he would pass onto a Son:

1. The Father is God… God who created all things: ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…’
2. It is admitted that Jesus is not God…
3. It is admitted that the Son is not [FIRST] BORN as thd first created being (See my thread on the subject)
4. So the verse in question is therefore:
   1. ‘The Father created all things FOR THE SON’
   2. ‘For him (the Son) all things were created [by the Father]’
   3. Trinity altered the scriptures so it now reads: ‘For BY him all things were created’
5. And, indeed, at the end of time, the Son becomes ‘The Ruler over the creation of the Father’

If Kenny can justify his claim that the Son, somehow pre-existent despite any evidence, created all things FOR HIMSELF, then he must show it… but he won’t because he can’t!!!

I do believe in the strict monotheism of an unknowable God. The controversy of the Trinity is not so simple and easily resolved. The NT scriptures were compiled, edited, and redacted by authors, likely Hellenist Jews after 50-200 AD developing a Roman theology of an anthropomorphic Trinitarian God.

The concept of polytheism is specifically apparent in the OT and archaeology.

 

[Kenny]

• He who creates;

3 (E)All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him [b]not even one thing came into being that has come into being. - Jesus

• He who gives life;

John 5b the Son gives life to whom he will.

• He who brings into being…

Same as "creates"

 

[Soapy]

3 (E)All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him [b]not even one thing came into being that has come into being. - Jesus



John 5b the Son gives life to whom he will.



Same as "creates"

What did the Father do in context of the creation?

What does ‘Father’ mean in context of creation?